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Your words: "You see, I don't believe that God made people gay. He gave us all free will and the ability to do and think what ever we want, regardless of what the translation of the Bible is."
The implication of your statement is that we all begin in the same place and we all want the same thing, and that we all have the ability to do think and choose whatever we want. Otherwise it doesn't compute...because if you're straight you don't have a natural desire for the same gender, so it's not something everyone wants. How can you justify that a certain percentage of people are required to suppress that natural desire, when everybody else doesn't feel it so they aren't in turmoil? That's not a fair expectation to place on certain people, and I don't think god would be unfair and unjust.
So instead you're saying that everybody makes choices about their lives, and gay people have chosen to feel the way they feel? That would be a strange choice for a human being to make, knowing the social and political consequences of it.
I'm not unhappy with myself, but I can assure you that if I were presented with 2 paths and could choose one of them, I damn sure wouldn't choose the difficult, dangerous path where there is a good chance I will be rejected by family and people I know. I would choose the other one, and be accepted by everyone, even the narrow-minded accept a person who's life looks and seems to fit the norm. We don't get to choose, so we try to make the best of what and who we are. That's it, no debate in which a person WHO IS NOT ME insists on telling me what is and isn't a choice FOR ME.
Last edited by sprtsluvr8; 02-14-2007 at 05:06 PM..
Reason: not finished
It's a way of life that WASN'T accepted in the past, but is more accepted every day. Sometimes I think god allows people and society as a whole to 'come around' on their own and evolve into a better and more tolerant world.
In a court of law it usually takes two eyewitnesses to consider something fact or the truth. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were among hundreds if not thousands of people who walked, talked, and worshipped with Jesus. That's 4 eyewitnesses (there are of course others) that give their accounts of Jesus' time on this earth. That would convince most jurys I would think.
I believe Buddha walked this earth as well, though he lived long before I was born.
I'm sorry to break the news to you but even the more conservative theologians know that Jesus' disciples of the Bible didn't write the Gospels.
* Mark: c. 68–73
* Matthew: c. 70–100 as the majority view; some conservative scholars argue for a pre-70 date, particularly those that do not accept Mark as the first gospel written.
* Luke: c. 80–100, with most arguing for somewhere around 85
* John: c. 90–110. Brown does not give a consensus view for John, but these are dates as propounded by C K Barrett, among others. The majority view is that it was written in stages, so there was no one date of composition.
Traditional Christian scholarship has generally preferred to assign earlier dates. Some historians interpret the end of the book of Acts as indicative, or at least suggestive, of its date; as Acts does not mention the death of Paul, generally accepted as the author of many of the Epistles, who was later put to death by the Romans c. 65. Acts is attributed to the author of the Gospel of Luke, and therefore would shift the chronology of authorship back, putting Mark as early as the mid 50's. Here are the dates given in the modern NIV Study Bible (for a fuller discussion see Augustinian hypothesis):
* Mark: c. 50's to early 60's, or late 60's
* Matthew: c. 50 to 70's
* Luke: c. 59 to 63, or 70's to 80's
* John: c. 85 to near 100, or 50's to 70
That's not a very good statement. To quote the web site above is also a bad move. The web site does not promote the "Matthew did not write Matthew, Mark did not write Mark" theory. Be careful I know the author of CARM and he would not subscribe to such fallacies.
The implication of your statement is that we all begin in the same place and we all want the same thing, and that we all have the ability to do think and choose whatever we want. Otherwise it doesn't compute...because if you're straight you don't have a natural desire for the same gender, so it's not something everyone wants. How can you justify that a certain percentage of people are required to suppress that natural desire, when everybody else doesn't feel it so they aren't in turmoil? That's not a fair expectation to place on certain people, and I don't think god would be unfair and unjust.
So instead you're saying that everybody makes choices about their lives, and gay people have chosen to feel the way they feel? That would be a strange choice for a human being to make, knowing the social and political consequences of it.
I'm not unhappy with myself, but I can assure you that if I were presented with 2 paths and could choose one of them, I damn sure wouldn't choose the difficult, dangerous path where there is a good chance I will be rejected by family and people I know. I would choose the other one, and be accepted by everyone, even the narrow-minded accept a person who's life looks and seems to fit the norm. We don't get to choose, so we try to make the best of what and who we are. That's it, no debate in which a person WHO IS NOT ME insists on telling me what is and isn't a choice FOR ME.
The only thing I can say is that we obviously come from two different places, here. You believe it's natural to be gay, and you stick by your beliefs. That's fine with me. I, myself, didn't grow up with a family who believes that. We're just traditional. Part of that is based on our religion and what we feel is right. I know that more and more people are accepting homosexuallity every day. They don't see it as a big deal. I just don't think God created people to be Gay. A lot of people would hate me for saying that and call me homophobic. I accept that because the world is turning to that point. I can't really make you understand where I'm comming from and I'm not trying to.
I don't believe the way you do. And I'm sorry if that offends you, but I was brought up that way, I don't know if anyone of my family members are gay, so I just don't believe that people are born to be gay.
Last edited by JJG; 02-15-2007 at 08:58 AM..
Reason: misplaced sentence
It's a way of life that WASN'T accepted in the past, but is more accepted every day. Sometimes I think god allows people and society as a whole to 'come around' on their own and evolve into a better and more tolerant world.
To one form or another it has been accepted through all times. People did not run out into the streets saying, "hey I'm gay woohooo". Now you see everyone and their brother on the tv, radio and internet coming out. They're the ones that are saying it's ok to be gay. Many gays are creatives and can influence through their trade. Writing, art, media etc. It's a stereotype that is true. It wasn't until the 80s that you really began hearing more about gay people ( or maybe that's just me since I was a teen in the 80s).
God would not want us to "come around" and tolerate what He considers sin. If he won't tolerate it, why should his believers? And please note that Satan is the god of this world. He blinds the spiritual eyes to the truth.
Well that's just thing. You see, I don't believe that God made people gay. He gave us all free will and the ability to do and think what ever we want, regardless of what the translation of the Bible is. Believe what ever you want. I'm going with what's in the book with this one.
basicly u dont belew in GOD.
U just belewe what an english priest wroted a few hundres years back.
The only thing I can say is that we obviously come from two different places, here. You believe it's natural to be gay, and you stick by your beliefs. That's fine with me. I, myself, didn't grow up with a family who believes that. We're just traditional. Part of that is based on our religion and what we feel is right. I know that more and more people are accepting homosexuallity every day. They don't see it as a big deal. I just don't think God created people to be Gay. A lot of people would hate me for saying that and call me homophobic. I accept that because the world is turning to that point. I can't really make you understand where I'm comming from and I'm not trying to.
I don't believe the way you do. And I'm sorry if that offends you, but I was brought up that way, I don't know if anyone of my family members are gay, so I just don't believe that people are born to be gay.
Well, I don't believe that a "God" exists, so does that make me right? Who knows?! (I don't even know with 100% certainty, and would never claim to) You're welcome to have your beliefs, but don't think for a second it makes them truth... I do have family members & friends who are gay, and it's clearly obvious they were made that way. Do you really think somebody would choose this life, when people like you are constantly berating and questioning them? It's a tough existence, and I don't think anyone would put up with it if they didn't HAVE to. You can't change who you're attracted to, and neither can they - no matter what religious beliefs you have, that's just a simple fact. You can push the feelings down, like Ted Haggard and a previous poster here, but that doesn't "cure" you or erase anything.
Oh I see...it wouldn't bother you if we would just not 'flaunt' it, right? You would rather gay people keep hiding their feelings, much as you don't flaunt your religious beliefs - you hide those from everyone, right? For all the years past of hiding who we were, constantly fearful of someone finding out, fearful of violence against us for it, fearful of losing the love of our families...I think it's great for gays and lesbians to celebrate it. It's our right and privilege as Americans - you do consider us Americans don't you? Much as it's your right to run out into the streets and say "woohoo, I'm a christian!" Christians love to defend their own rights while trying to deny the rights of others...that's probably the reason for all the negativity toward them - they bring it on themselves.
By the way, the stereotypical creativity you mention as factual information...where do you get your facts? From what you see on T.V. and in the media and in your everyday life I assume...and you need to realize that those gays and lesbians are ONLY the ones who are visible to you in some way. Just think about the millions of others of us who you CAN'T pick out of the crowd...doctors, telemarketers, factory workers, professional athletes, actors, lawyers, bankers, retail workers, custodians, police officers, the unemployed...and oh yeah - teachers, that's me. I happen to be one of those that you wouldn't pick out as gay...not creative, into sports, don't go to clubs, and I'm not a sissy. So you better watch out, there could be one of us living next door to you and you would never know it - and I bet he/she would be the BEST neighbor you ever had!
To one form or another it has been accepted through all times. People did not run out into the streets saying, "hey I'm gay woohooo". Now you see everyone and their brother on the tv, radio and internet coming out. They're the ones that are saying it's ok to be gay. Many gays are creatives and can influence through their trade. Writing, art, media etc. It's a stereotype that is true. It wasn't until the 80s that you really began hearing more about gay people ( or maybe that's just me since I was a teen in the 80s).
God would not want us to "come around" and tolerate what He considers sin. If he won't tolerate it, why should his believers? And please note that Satan is the god of this world. He blinds the spiritual eyes to the truth.
Whatever happened to being HUMAN, and respectful of other people? I don't care what your religious beliefs are, and what you think God would want (it's rather presumptuous to assume you know this, btw )... if you don't like homosexuality, that's totally your prerogative. But by all means, this does not give you the right to be judgemental and/or hateful toward them. That's just a matter of humanity, and religion shouldn't be part of the discussion - as hard as that is for some!
Oh, and I personally think it's great that people are more free these days, and able to live openly. Homosexuality has always existed, but they were just forced to live in the closet - which has to be an awful existence. Back in the early Hollywood days, do you know how many had "fake spouses", just to keep up appearances? Like the first Darrin from "Bewitched", who was involved with many women for public appearance, but had a long-term male partner in his private life. Here's a quote from imdb about that: "He was never married, but had a long-time companion whom he was with for 20 years before the man's death from a cerebral hemorrhage in 1979. He had "manufactured" a wife to the press in the early productive days, to protect his career." It's sad how they had to live in secrecy, and I think it's a positive advancement that they can now be openly gay. They're not saying it's OKAY, or that everyone should be gay... they just don't want to live in hiding anymore, and no longer give you the option of pushing them down. Anyway, that's my opinion, take it or leave it.
Last edited by gizmo980; 02-15-2007 at 12:40 PM..
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)... if you don't like homosexuality, that's totally your prerogative. But by all means, this does not give you the right to be judgemental and/or hateful toward them. That's just a matter of humanity, and religion shouldn't be part of the discussion - as hard as that is for some!
