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Thank you bluepacific, for elaborating on what i really and truly do not even want to touch with a long stick.
As long as people fear to discuss such things with those involuntarily having to live with such an inheritance, and as long as even big money can be made exploiting such filth, it's extremely difficult for individuals to come clear with their history and culture lest they start their own thinking.
Right. He says its the Ark you say its not. Its a matter of opinion. Is your opinion more valid than his? Who's testimony has more credence? The persons that actually been there and claims to have seen it or the persons that has never been there and says it doesn't exist?
Well stated, OTF! Until some objective folks hike up Ararat it will remain speculation, but there are, of course some very convincing and conflicting remote-sensing findings about it so far. Should we just dismiss them out of hand? The more evidence I've provided to C34 along these lines, the more he dodged about looking for a convenient "rabbit hole". More to the point, dogmatic theists will never accept any evidence that refutes their required beliefs, hence in light of the following two facts:
The recent (summer '08, Michican St. Un; Lenski etal) PROOF of Evolutionary Processes, and:
Complete acceptance by the world and the scientific community of the Absolute validity of new artifact and fossil dating methodologies, PROVING that dino bones and hominid remains date waaaaay before the YEC-required 6034 year-ago "poof" origin of everything.
Once you accept these two PROOFS, you'll have to conclude that the bible can no longer be taken literally. As in: the Ark. No further arguments required, 'cause it just didn't happen. Silly and irrelevant.
This Mt. Ararat thing, even if it really is an old boat, is by no means automatically, ergo, The Ark. The illogic of Vegan T-Rexs, pairs of Mega-sauri and throngs of other huge plus micro-species co-existing and feeding and excreting on a relatively tiny boat being tossed about on endlessly stormy seas for a year and a half, only to return to an ecologically devasted, vegetation- or prey-free salt-soaked-soil planet, to try, with only two of each living thing to completely repopulate it (ecologically impossible, BTW) is just too surreal. (BTW, C34, just where did those dinos that co-existed with man, and disembarked off that cramped Ark, go to? Where, in the bible, since it supposedly maintains in absolute detail an accurate post-flood history, does it cover their complete extinction? Sighhhh. Yawnnn. Zzzzzzz.)
But nontheless, for some, such unbending belief is a pre-requisite to not going off the deep end.
Given the dogmo-theist's complete lack of ability to reason or to accept irrefutible proof, or to just accept the bible simply as a good ethics guidebook, not a literal science text, I'm going to slip out of the tent, so to speak, and go somewhere that I can debate or discuss with rational, mutually respectful beings.
Or, as my wife said this morning on her way to Church, "No point in arguing with your pet dog!" Though she then added that even dogs can understand a bit of English! "Best he can ever do is answer to a few simplistic commands!"
"Sit, Christian! Think! Think! Good boy"
To the atheists who remain loyally and hopefully on this and other similar threads, I say: fight the good fight, guys. Remember the PROOFS, and know that if you say them often enough, perhaps we might win over a scant few! The ones who like to think for themselves at least!
BFN!
Last edited by rifleman; 01-25-2009 at 12:08 PM..
Reason: typos
Thank you bluepacific, for elaborating on what i really and truly do not even want to touch with a long stick.
As long as people fear to discuss such things with those involuntarily having to live with such an inheritance, and as long as even big money can be made exploiting such filth, it's extremely difficult for individuals to come clear with their history and culture lest they start their own thinking.
You know that actually a lot of this stuff also started in Sweden long before there was a Nazi Germany. Hermann Göring was married to a Swedish girl , Baroness Carin Von Kantzow. She belonged to a mystical religious order called the "Edelweiss Society" which also believed in the Norse mythology and the Swastika. Many don't realise how much of an influences there were between the two countries. Better not go there because I've gotten flamed for it in the past, but the history is still interesting.
Wrong, I can believe in a localized flood of epic proportions just not a global flood and secondly the animals were likely NOT every creature as that has been debunked as not being plausible. The suggested NT confirmations reference the known scriptures of the day viz the Talmud and thus is in no way to be seen as a confirmation. Peter certainly was not there so he used it in a teaching just like Jesus did.
That is where we differ. If I do not get answers and weigh it scientifically or even using common sense, I do not merely accept it because it was written 3000+ years ago and in line with what I know of how the OT was reinvented to merge the Elohim-ites and the Jehovah-ites.
The difference is you have a TV physically in front of you and they are everywhere. You could likely google "how does a TV work" and I am sure you will find courses and even a simplistic laymanys tutorial how it works.
Well today I watched the History channel which presented both sides and even the yay sayers admitted that the proof was NOT verifiable. The irony was that a yay sayer had the last word and I quote:
"If it is found to be the ark, it will be the biggest discovery since the resurrection of Jesus and will redifine science"
Not that I agree as the Jesus story is not verifiable other than what we have in the NT and science will not change other than trying to find out where all the water came from or went.
You choose thus to believe it happened, I do not - the "evidence" is found wanting.
The problem is no one is challenging your faith, you are entering into the ("twilite") zone of science and by that it means the biblical accounts are only for reference and NOT proof. When you want to prove the biblical accounts using the scientific method, you operate thus by the scientific method rules.
The fact that you admit you do not have answers is at least a start.
Here is a question for you personally.
If it is proven beyond any reasonable doubt that the anomaly is NOT the ark, how will that affect you personally?
I personally believe every account found in the Scriptures. I fully believe the story of the flood. I believe that account is confirmed by the New Testament. And the New Testament has already told us, that in the last days there will come scoffers who will deny the story of the flood. The Old Testament tells us, the water rose above the mountains. That statement alone rules out a local flood. And it is that story that is confirmed in the New Testament. If the object on Ararat was not Noahs Ark, that would not effect my faith, because my faith is not built on Noahs Ark, it is built on the person of Jesus Christ. Yet Jesus confirmed that Noahs Ark existed, and it should be obvious, that if we were just speaking of a local flood, there would of been no reason for Noah's Ark. The Bible also tells us that in the last days men would not endure sound doctrine, but would be turned away from the truth. And the Bible also warns us, to beware of science falsely so called. Thomas was not confused about the story of the flood, and neither was Jesus. If you recall, it was Jesus who created the world.
A Christian doesn't even have to see any absurdities in the bible to disagree with Campbell. Most Christians see the flood as an allegory, which causes a problem with campbells myths.
If someone doesn't believe in the flood then they must be evil or deluded but when a Christian thinks it's a myth, he can't argue against them so instead he unleashes a flurry of personal attacks, the worst of them being that the person is not really a Christian.
I mean have you noticed these last few pages? All that text can be condensed into a few lines:
"I'm a believer and you are not because you do not believe in the flood"
People who call themselves Christians yet do not believe the story of the flood are the one's who have the problem, and not me. For you see, Jesus Christ Himself confirms the story of the Flood, the New Testament confirms the story of the Flood. If those who call themselves Christians can't believe the (words of Jesus), or the New Testament, what can they believe? I'm a BELIEVER, because I believe in the (WORDS OF JESUS).
This is not just about believing in the flood. It is about believing (JESUS).
Jesus created the world before he was created???? It's getting curiouser and curiouser, as Alice said after she fell down the rabbit hole.
Jesus existed before the world was created. Do you recall when the Jews tried to kill Him. (John 8:58) Jesus told the Jews, "before Abraham was, I Am". The Jews knew exactly what Jesus was saying, and that is why they wanted to kill Him.
People who call themselves Christians yet do not believe the story of the flood are the one's who have the problem, and not me. For you see, Jesus Christ Himself confirms the story of the Flood, the New Testament confirms the story of the Flood. If those who call themselves Christians can't believe the (words of Jesus), or the New Testament, what can they believe? I'm a BELIEVER, because I believe in the (WORDS OF JESUS).
This is not just about believing in the flood. It is about believing (JESUS).
Sorry but you are going to have to try harder than that. Clearly both of you believe in Jesus yet have reached different conclusions on his words. You are not Jesus so you can't know what he really meant. Whether you are right or not, both of you are Christians who have accepted Jesus as your saviour and no amount of bickering is ever going to change that.
Oh we all know you are a believer Campbell...It seems that you believe everything and anything to do with the supernatural, along with most bogus web sites you offer up as evidence. On the other hand when it comes to science and the real world we all live in, you believe almost nothing at all.
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