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I dont need god to have a purpose.
My purpose is to enjoy life while I have it, because it does not last very long.
No it's not. Your life has no purpose, sorry. It is a accident. You have no purpose. You are just an accident of something that happened a long, long time ago. But do not feel bad, because so are your parents, your pets, your kids, the trees, the sun, the moon, the planets in our solar system, the stars, the birds..hey, even dinosaurs too - yep, they are accidents as well! Lets not forget cave men, the ice age, these are all things part of a huge, huge accident! Oh, hey, don't forget everyone that's every died since man existed. They're all accidents as well. Hey..death itself is an accident too. Death at one time never existed, it just came along with this accident too. Growing and learning and getting older - an accident. Amazing!
When I truly look at this, it's laughable. I'm sorry, but it really is. I do not understand how an atheist can think everything we see, touch, feel, smell, taste, and hear is just part of a accident. It would take huge amounts of belief to truly think we came from a accident. Huge amounts. HUGE..extremely HUGE. Huge beyond anything I can even show. More faith than believing in God or ANY God. How does an atheist truly believe this? I mean, do atheists think magicians can summon birds from their hats? Do atheists believe man can spit fire from his mouth at his call?
The reason I say this is because it's the truth. An accident is something that happened with no intent or purpose. Humans either came about from something with no intent or purpose, or we came about from something that gave us an intend and purpose. You choose!
It's not my intend to insult anyones belief, but when I look out my window and say to myself "Everything I see is an accident", I seriously, seriously just laugh to think that. Not because it's not only false, but because it's funny anyone would think this. We all die someday, and that's when we find out the truth to all. Whether or not you accept that, too bad. Because your day will come, and you will see.
No it's not. Your life has no purpose, sorry. It is a accident. You have no purpose. You are just an accident of something that happened a long, long time ago. But do not feel bad, because so are your parents, your pets, your kids, the trees, the sun, the moon, the planets in our solar system, the stars, the birds..hey, even dinosaurs too - yep, they are accidents as well! Lets not forget cave men, the ice age, these are all things part of a huge, huge accident! Oh, hey, don't forget everyone that's every died since man existed. They're all accidents as well. Hey..death itself is an accident too. Death at one time never existed, it just came along with this accident too. Growing and learning and getting older - an accident. Amazing!
When I truly look at this, it's laughable. I'm sorry, but it really is. I do not understand how an atheist can think everything we see, touch, feel, smell, taste, and hear is just part of a accident. It would take huge amounts of belief to truly think we came from a accident. Huge amounts. HUGE..extremely HUGE. Huge beyond anything I can even show. More faith than believing in God or ANY God. How does an atheist truly believe this? I mean, do atheists think magicians can summon birds from their hats? Do atheists believe man can spit fire from his mouth at his call?
The reason I say this is because it's the truth. An accident is something that happened with no intent or purpose. Humans either came about from something with no intent or purpose, or we came about from something that gave us an intend and purpose. You choose!
It's not my intend to insult anyones belief, but when I look out my window and say to myself "Everything I see is an accident", I seriously, seriously just laugh to think that. Not because it's not only false, but because it's funny anyone would think this. We all die someday, and that's when we find out the truth to all. Whether or not you accept that, too bad. Because your day will come, and you will see.
I have read through this entire thread, and I think we could summarize it all with this statement: You don't like the english word 'accident'.
You also are failing to discern between objective and subjective notions of meaning.
Objectively, there may be no absolute meaning which binds all of humankind.
Subjectively, WE CREATE our meaning. I want to live my life to the fullest and experience all that I can during my short period of consciousness. That is my purpose. Sure, others may not agree that that is their purpose. But it is MY PURPOSE. You can never take that away. It is subjective.
Do you understand the difference between objective and subjective?
Actually if we came from a accident, you have no purpose in life. What you're trying to do is accomplish purposes that came from an accident, not purposes by themselves, because raising a family, getting a job, college, and so on - are a result of a accident if that's how we came about. They were never intended to be, they just happened as part of the accident that you are. I accomplish purpose in my life because I believe I am accomplishing things that God wants me to do. I am not, however, trying to overcome the odds and beat accidents. I can tell you I have been a lot of places and have got to travel while many people my age are stuck working for $8 an hour and living at home with their parents. I've accomplished so much because I live for God, then myself. Not the otherway around.
You seem to have a rather arrogant attachment to the word "accident" as though we are all supposed to sit here and think to ourselves that our existence would be so much more "profitable" if we thought of things as less of an accident and more of a purposeful creation.
If we are merely the result of an "accident" then I say "Who cares?" It's not my fault that you have an inability to focus on a universe without purpose and are obviously incapable of having the inner strength to existentially fulfill your own conscious desires and purposes.
I have many desires and purposes in my life. Are they the result of an accident? Using the term you seem to be stuck on, yes. But, I ask again, "WHO CARES?" I have fit rather well into society, I have been successful on my own and I have experienced many of the same things that any believer would experience in every day life. Your belief that we are part of some "plan" does not change the fact that I have deigned a purpose to my own existence and have managed to fulfill that to the best of my abilities. If you can't handle that, if you can't accept that, if you just can't fathom that, then I feel sorry for you for thinking of things so shortsightedly. You have no right to tell me that an "accidental" existence would mean less to me than an ulteriorly "purposeful" existence.
It's the insatiable and selfish desire of those who feel the universe and the world must be created for some reason by some sort of entity that I find to be truly audacious and self-deprecating. How selfish one must be to determine that the universe, the Earth, and everything else we see and experience was all created for "Me, Me, Me, Me." I'll take an "accidental" existence any day over that.
If humans just came here by the 1 out of a gazillion, trillion, billion, quadzillon, zillion trillion billion kazillion chance of it all just happening one day, why do we question things? We question because we know it's not that simple. We know it's not that easy. If it was, you wouldn't be here debating with anyone. Instead, you'd be living in a hut from the outside world and never come out - but then again, you would talk to yourself..see below. If we really just came about because of a huge mistake, how do we know what's right and wrong? What are morals? Did humans determine what morals are or were we given morals from the start? Why is it wrong to murder? Why isn't it right to rob a bank? Why is rape bad? Aren't we just supposed to get old and die? Just imagine living your life and not knowing what's wrong. Erase jail, death, murder, crime, hell - any bad thing from your mind. Erase praise, applause, love - anything good from your mind. Now, imagine having someone give you a match and telling you to set a home on fire. How would you know what to do? You don't know what's right or wrong, so you would set it on fire, or you may not. It wouldn't matter to you anyway, because you don't know. You're going to tell me you would know, but you say that because your living in a mindset right now where you do know. Anyone that has ever commited a wrong act against another human or animal knows it's wrong. Deep, deep down inside, SOMEWHERE, unseen to other humans, something is boiling the word wrong. If you don't believe that - fine, but it's the truth. Many people that commit crimes apologize and cry because what they thought was right, truly wasn't, but they did it anyways. Why?
Why do some people go to a bridge to jump off then something inside says "Don't"? Why does the consciousness exist? If it just all happened, the consciousness didn't have to come with it. The consciousness is an accident, as well, right? The inner-self did not have to exist either. You go out with friends and they decide to beat some kid up but you know it's wrong. We have a brain to think and a heart to pump blood. Are those just accidents too? We just got lucky with two part parts that happened to be essential to human life? Not forgetting lungs, your liver, and so on. Those are along with the accident called life. We *just* got lucky enough to have these body parts, not to mention the ability to taste, smell, etc. when one day *NOTHING* was here. Why did humans come about the way we did? Why do we reproduce? At one time, reproduction never existed, so why did it come along? Why can our eyes detect the many colors it can and not one more or one less? Why do we have five fingers on each hand? You really think so? If you do, that's fine. I don't.
Seriously just look around and observe everything. Do you truly, honestly believe that everything you've ever seen in your life. Everything you can do. Everything you've ever touched, smelt, tasted, or heard. Any female you got pregnant and had a child with. Every green tree you see and every green grass piece you see. Every single star, the millions and millions that exist, are really, truly, just an accident?
If you want to give yourself a purpose, that is fine. I believe we are all born with a purpose, we grow to determine what the purpose is, and then we are rewarded when we die on how we did. I do not believe we just live a purpose we make up, and then die, and be forgotten in a matter of years. Observe everyone that has ever lived and look at what they've done. Whether they did good or bad, I believe it was destined to be so. Good or bad, it was their destiny.
My friend, I am not trying to disrespect you or anyone. We are all brothers and sisters whether you think so or not. I am just suggesting what I believe, and that is we have a true purpose, not a purpose we make up.
My friend, I am not trying to disrespect you or anyone. We are all brothers and sisters whether you think so or not. I am just suggesting what I believe, and that is we have a true purpose, not a purpose we make up.
I fail to see how you are not trying to disrespect anyone but insist on telling me that looking at an "accidental" reasoning for our existence is somehow flawed or that I would not know the difference between right and wrong, or that I would not have a consciousness or an ability to feel emotions.
Your argument is nothing more than a thoughtless incredulity in which you simply state aloud how you cannot fathom any other reason for the existence of these things. Furthermore, your insistence in using the word "accident" shows that you are trying to provide a fundamentally unsound viewpoint of how I and many others view our very own existence.
You make it sound like all of us who do not believe in an imaginary sky-creature lack a sense of meaning in our life. It seems as though you have come to the conclusion that when we all sit around debating the meaning of life and the way of the universe that first and foremost on our minds lies some sort of "accidental" happening - which is simply not true.
I think there is a unique sense of pleasure and happiness in my interpretation of the world. To do my best to understand the processes of the world and the universe, to consider how lucky we are to be here as a result of that understanding, and being able to fulfill my dreams and wishes are the best that one can hope for. I would imagine those are viewpoints I can attribute to my own sense of cognizance in the world - free of some sort of external purpose-giver.
Furthermore, if you fully understood the mechanisms of evolution (whether cosmological or biological) - you would understand that "chance" and "accident" are not really words that fit those mechanisms because the slow and gradual way in which it occurs is not a sudden process that "chance" or "accident" would try to coercively imply. I presume you would not have also asked the questions of convenience in regards to our hearts, lungs, etc...
And finally:
Quote:
Originally Posted by slashsdfz
Instead, you'd be living in a hut from the outside world and never come out - but then again, you would talk to yourself..see below.
I'll ask you nicely not to make assumptions as to what I would or would not be doing if I viewed the world and universe a certain way. I fail to see how you can pass judgment and distinguish behavioral characteristics of every single person you have collectively grouped together as, in your own words, viewing the world as "accidental." You don't know me and you don't know anyone else on this forum (I think) - So don't assign attributes to me or anyone else based on what YOU would do. Because when you do so, it makes your position look crummy and vindictive, not logical and well-thought out.
How do you know what's right and wrong? Because your parents told you? Well, who told them? And who told who told them? And it goes back to the first person (or in my belief, people) that ever existed. How did they really know? Did they roll the dice and guess? For all we know, they could have decided robbery was right and I could go rob a bank right now and get cheered for it, and no one would think it's wrong. So tell me how we know what's wrong and what's right. Why do we have a consciousness? Why does the consciousness exist? Why do we have the ability to reproduce? Why do we have two eyes and not three or four? What is autism and where did it come from? Where did cancer come from and why does it exist? Where did brain tumors come from? Why do we have a brain, and why are we given one? It is the single most important thing to a human body, and without it we would be dead. Why do have it? Did luck determine we needed a brain? Why is it called the brain and functions the way it does? Did luck determine reproduction? Did luck determine sex organs? Where and why do sex organs exist if they were never once before? Why does a newborn baby cry and need to be breastfed in his or her early life? Why do HUMANS cry period? Why do we have emotions? Where did grief and sadness come from, and why does every human alive grief and suffer at one point? Why do we live and die? Where did death come from? What made death what it is? Why can death no exist? Did death not exist at once point? What, how, and where did DNA come about? Why is it here? Did luck determine we all have DNA? I would seriously like you answer ALL of the above, if you can. Don't tell me I need to read science 101, because I've been there and read that. You tell me.
I use the word accident because to me it's the ultimate truth in what I think of when I heard the word atheism. Like you think of faith as a christian, I think of accident as an either. Okay, fine. Better yet, why don't you explain to me how we came about. I can assure you, you will NOT, in anyway shape or form, no way at all, give me a *PURPOSE* or *REASONING* on why we're here. You just can't do it. No where in your answer will the words purpose, reasoning, or intent be used because without someone doing it, those words do not exist. I want to buy a new car because my old one is going to die. Without my old car, the new car, and without me existing, there's no reason to get a car because I'm not here with a reason to do so. There's no reason for us being here if it "just happened" - if something "just happened" to get a car without anyone or anything to get it with.
If you tell me one day the big bang did it, that was an accident. A miracle, amazing, stunning, but an accident. If two things go kaboom and over a LONG LONG LONG period of time make the sun, the stars, the oceans, the earth, the planets, man, woman, cat, dog, fish, dinosaurs, caveman, mountains then that was something that happened with no intent or purpose, and was not meant to be. It's just that - "it's just". Life would not be meaningful if that was the case. We would be useless people with no purpose to be here and have nothing to live for whatsoever. If you want to live for your kids, you need kids to live for. If you want to live for the goodwill of others, you need them to live for. If you want to live for the goodwill of YOU...YOU need YOU to live for. Nothingness cannot live for nothingness. Two things did not come together and say to each other "Lets hit each other and makes some planets, the sun, and all that good stuff they'll (humans cat dog fish dinosaurs etc.) essentially need to LIVE such as water food air" etc. etc. If two things came together and DID say that, they had a REASON or INTENT too, but that is as true as a sitting rock walking because two things that went boom did not and could not talk to each other to determine a reason to do so.
If life isn't an accident and God doesn't exist then what is life? Explain why we live then? What is the true purpose of live. When one day life never existed, what was the purpose for it happening? Life cannot be an accident if a creator reasoned to make us and everything we see as humans.
Actually I do believe in Evolution as it can be observed but that does not mean I cannot believe in God. Futhermore there are many things science cannot explain as science itself is man made and I'd encourage you to watch the below for a explanation on that
This idiot is your hero? He is so far out of touch with reality it's funny, not only that but in the first video he did nothing but double talk, allowing no rebuttal....In the second more than half of his time was spent on attacking his opponent. Again no rebuttal.
How do you know what's right and wrong? Because your parents told you? Well, who told them? And who told who told them? And it goes back to the first person (or in my belief, people) that ever existed. How did they really know? Did they roll the dice and guess? For all we know, they could have decided robbery was right and I could go rob a bank right now and get cheered for it, and no one would think it's wrong. So tell me how we know what's wrong and what's right.
In my opinion, there is no ultimate "right" or "wrong." There is no divine judgment as to what is correct or incorrect - there is only ourselves and what we deem to be right and wrong. Whether those opinions are justified through sociological factors, psychological factors, or personal experience and discernment (most likely a mix of all of the above) is probably what ultimately determines our own jurisdiction in what we perceive as "right" and "wrong."
It should, of course, be of no surprise to you that over the course of human history, religion has done nothing more than re-inforce those very psycho-social moral values. We hear that it is sinful to be homosexual from some believers and yet other believers feel that it is fine in the eyes of their God. We hear the same thing for things such as abortion, who we elect as an official, whether we should drink alcohol or eat a certain food product. Some say it is OK while others say that it is not. It seems to me that these same attributions of what is sinful and what is not sinful are just as arbitrary and "made up" as any dictation of what I would tell you I feel is right or wrong and certainly not handed down from some divine hand.
Thus I say to you that there is no magical authority on what is deemed right or wrong. There is indeed what conforms to society, what conforms to the welfare of other people and ultimately what does not conform to society and what does not constitute to the welfare of other people. Morality is not something that you hold any monopoly over as a believer or that I do as a non-believer. Ultimately, we are responsible for our own discernment on what is right and wrong. Just because you choose to project onto your God what your own moral decisions are doesn't make you any more right or wrong than I because it has ultimately come from the same place - YOU!
Quote:
Originally Posted by slashsdfz
Why do we have a consciousness? Why does the consciousness exist? Why do we have the ability to reproduce? Why do we have two eyes and not three or four? What is autism and where did it come from? Where did cancer come from and why does it exist? Where did brain tumors come from? Why do we have a brain, and why are we given one? It is the single most important thing to a human body, and without it we would be dead. Why do have it? Did luck determine we needed a brain? Why is it called the brain and functions the way it does? Did luck determine reproduction? Did luck determine sex organs? Where and why do sex organs exist if they were never once before? Why does a newborn baby cry and need to be breastfed in his or her early life? Why do HUMANS cry period? Why do we have emotions? Where did grief and sadness come from, and why does every human alive grief and suffer at one point? Why do we live and die? Where did death come from? What made death what it is? Why can death no exist? Did death not exist at once point? What, how, and where did DNA come about? Why is it here? Did luck determine we all have DNA? I would seriously like you answer ALL of the above, if you can. Don't tell me I need to read science 101, because I've been there and read that. You tell me.
I'll ignore what sound like the incessant ramblings of a four year old child. The answer to the majority of your questions are as such:
Because each component of our physicality is dependent on how we evolved into this world and is the result of a multitude of different pressures and conditions that without which we would not have survived unless we were equipped with such things. I should be prudent in mentioning that each "development" that we do have also comes at a cost. Thus, to answer the question as to why we do not have three or four eyes instead of two, I would say that the cost/benefit association with having two eyes allowed whatever common ancestor we share with other two eyed creatures of the same originations (as far as eyes are concerned) to function better in its given environment. While three eyes may indeed be better to detect predators or prey, the cost factors (required and available nutrition, increased risk of disease, etc...) probably and/or most likely outweighed the benefit. Thus, the creature that had two eyes fared better than the creature with three or four or one eye(s). I presume you can use that example and figure out the rest in terms of brains, livers, hearts, etc...
Furthermore, back to the "morality" question... I do believe that our innate sense of morality stems, in large part, from the evolutionary advantages it offered our early species. While we may look at an early caveman and think that his barbaric ways were something that would not fit into society, we may also find primitive components of morality that helped spread his genetics. The "You scratch my back, I'll shave yours," mentality could indeed offer a better functionality for the whole of the species rather than just one individual. Personally, I think it's possible that this sense of morality was borne out of selfishness in a case such as -"If I help this guy, he'll help me and then I have a better chance at surviving." It is not to say that everything we do for one another in a moral sense is borne out of selfishness because I don't believe it is but that the moral sense offered a better advantage to developmental evolution of our species as a whole.
Perhaps, for example, in the case of certain honeybees who when protecting their nest often fling themselves at an intruder and upon removing their stinger, a large part of their abdomen is wripped out... this would seem to hinder the overall "fittest" of their gene pool. However, we must also be cognizant of the idea in which this "programming" was borne out of. Does that one act of selflessness and sacrifice ultimately save the rest of the hive and, if so, is it not advantageous for this to be part of the honeybee gene pool?
Quote:
Originally Posted by slashsdfz
I use the word accident because to me it's the ultimate truth in what I think of when I heard the word atheism. Like you think of faith as a christian, I think of accident as an either. Okay, fine. Better yet, why don't you explain to me how we came about. I can assure you, you will NOT, in anyway shape or form, no way at all, give me a *PURPOSE* or *REASONING* on why we're here. You just can't do it. No where in your answer will the words purpose, reasoning, or intent be used because without someone doing it, those words do not exist. I want to buy a new car because my old one is going to die. Without my old car, the new car, and without me existing, there's no reason to get a car because I'm not here with a reason to do so. There's no reason for us being here if it "just happened" - if something "just happened" to get a car without anyone or anything to get it with.
Why are you so freaking demanding that I provide you with an ulterior purpose for my existence or the existence of the universe?! Have I not made it abundantly clear to you that I deign no ulterior purpose out of anything the universe has given me? What is your obsession with this when I have been rather clear and adamant that I don't feel the universe owes me ANYTHING - not even a purpose.
Am I clear enough on that yet?
Quote:
Originally Posted by slashsdfz
If you tell me one day the big bang did it, that was an accident. A miracle, amazing, stunning, but an accident. If two things go kaboom and over a LONG LONG LONG period of time make the sun, the stars, the oceans, the earth, the planets, man, woman, cat, dog, fish, dinosaurs, caveman, mountains then that was something that happened with no intent or purpose, and was not meant to be. It's just that - "it's just". Life would not be meaningful if that was the case. We would be useless people with no purpose to be here and have nothing to live for whatsoever. If you want to live for your kids, you need kids to live for. If you want to live for the goodwill of others, you need them to live for. If you want to live for the goodwill of YOU...YOU need YOU to live for. Nothingness cannot live for nothingness. Two things did not come together and say to each other "Lets hit each other and makes some planets, the sun, and all that good stuff they'll (humans cat dog fish dinosaurs etc.) essentially need to LIVE such as water food air" etc. etc. If two things came together and DID say that, they had a REASON or INTENT too, but that is as true as a sitting rock walking because two things that went boom did not and could not talk to each other to determine a reason to do so.
*Sigh* The antagonistic superiority in which you speak to me as though I must have to have a purpose is annoying. I certainly understand that you feel we must have a purpose. I get that. But, it is you who seems to fail in understanding that where you see absolutely nothing but a dismal, dark playing field, I find a certain sense of happiness and relief in that. Why are you being so adamant in telling me that my self-imposed existence is any less important than yours is because YOU claim to hold a purpose. It's ridiculous, selfish, arrogant and downright pathetic.
Slash,
Your OP mentions things that are debatable. The philosophers I've read may disagree with the OP.
I'm an atheist who believes life is meaningless. This is a generality. That does not mean that we should all merely exist. Anyone can put meaning into their lives; it's personal responsibility.
To those who have chosen to serve religion. Don't forget that christianity is not the only religion which claims to give meaning to people's lives. Religion merely offers one size fits all, pre-packaged "meanings to life", which can be accepted by those who do not have any desire to investigate (in their own minds) about the meaning of life. No thought process involved. To accept religion as the "meaning of life" is for those who are in a hurry to discover the meaning of life. This can be a life long process. In this regard, philosophy is the direction to go, not religion.
To me, religion is meaningless.
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