The Jews, Christians an the Bible (grace, gospels, worship, Commandments)
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I wold suspect that being Jewish is much like being Indian in that there are three elements to being one of the people: genetics which define us (you kinda have to have the blood and actual NDN parents - at least one anyway), native family that sustains us, and community recognition and involvement which preserves who we are culturally. Without these things you kinda just make claims and take those things you learned from the media or some book and end up looking foolish to those who actually are from those communities. From my observations, the Jewish people, being the very distinctive people they are, see it the same way -- the three elements. People outside these communities who take a made up Jewish or Indian (or whatever else) identity to themselves just don't get why those who really are from those cultures don't like it and kinda get mad.
Great observation. On my father's side, I have Nipmuck great- grandfather- but I would never say I was Nipmuck! Just because I've been to a few celebrations and drum circles and know about that part of my heritage does NOT mean that I'm a Nipmuck! How crass of me it would be to claim it. I didn't grow up with the community. My father and grandparents did not either. I can't suddenly decide that the community my family left behind years ago should suddenly welcome me with open arms. It doesn't work that way. From my observations, Indian culture works somewhat similarly to Jews. And likewise, they get really annoyed when people a few generations out come back claiming to be a member of the tribe despite having nothing to go by.
You seem to not understand basic things which is really sad in a way. Jesus went to the Jews so they could go out and preach other other nations.
And why on EARTH would they do that? It is against Judaism to spread our religion in the garish way of which Christianity has adopted. A true Jew wouldn't feel the need to go out and preach to other nations.
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You have error in your thinking, Jesus is not a false Messiah. I now see where you are coming from and the error, so I don't feel the need to even go any further.
If you don't believe in God then you want believe what others say about Him. (Jesus)
And yet you don't correct me (and you know, every rabbi since Jesus) as to how Jesus fulfilled those requirements. It's not a two shot deal- he either did it or he didn't.
You are also believing what others said about him. Didn't you ever learn how to recognize the author of what is being written? The New Testament was written by supports of Jesus- many of whom lived years after the fact. Doesn't sound like very reliable text to me.
Great observation. On my father's side, I have Nipmuck great- grandfather- but I would never say I was Nipmuck! Just because I've been to a few celebrations and drum circles and know about that part of my heritage does NOT mean that I'm a Nipmuck! How crass of me it would be to claim it. I didn't grow up with the community. My father and grandparents did not either. I can't suddenly decide that the community my family left behind years ago should suddenly welcome me with open arms. It doesn't work that way. From my observations, Indian culture works somewhat similarly to Jews. And likewise, they get really annoyed when people a few generations out come back claiming to be a member of the tribe despite having nothing to go by.
Yes and there are those who never exeperienced the joys and hardships that go along with being a member of a community come around and tell you what your culture really is or should be while you grew up with it your whole life. I see that going on in this thread to you Jewish folk.
Last edited by Fullback32; 06-18-2009 at 12:11 PM..
Reason: clarification
You are also believing what others said about him. Didn't you ever learn how to recognize the author of what is being written? The New Testament was written by supports of Jesus- many of whom lived years after the fact. Doesn't sound like very reliable text to me.
Sounds simple to you, but this is one of the hardest [simple] observations to penetrate the Christian mind. It might have something to do with not wanting to be confused by any facts.
Christianity is just a sect of Judaism, so really all Christians are really Jews. Christian is just the name given to the believers in Jesus Christ. It means "little Christ". Over the years Christianity has grown so big that we categorize it by itself apart from Judaism.
I have a deep understanding of Judaism. But better then this it is written, "let him that glorieth glory in this that he understands and knows Me." That is who I understand. That is what I glory in.
Christianity is not a sect of Judaism. I do not think you understand of the meaning of a sect. The dictionary defines it as "A group of people forming a distinct unit within a larger group by virtue of certain refinements or distinctions of belief or practice." So for example the religion Christianity has about a 100,000 sects. Some call themselves: Roman catholic, Baptist, born again, assembly of god, protestant, 1st assembly, orthodox, Greek orthodox, evangelist. But they are all Christian. Judaism has sect too, I know you are familiar with them.
Judaism does not recognize the Christians as similar in belief. Judaism opinion on your matter would be that you are a Jew that is practicing Idolatry. Because Jews do not believe man is god. That is almost the number 1 difference between Jews and Christians. I understand that you believe that from Abraham that 2 other religions were created but this does not mean they are sects. Unfortunately, Jesus is not the most important figure in Paul's Christianity. Most people believe in the Roman/Paul doctrine of the bible, which is totally opposite of what the Jews (practicing Judaism) believe.
Matter of fact Christianity does not need the Old Testament to stand by itself as a religion. Most of what the New Testament took from the Old Testament is manipulated to fit their doctrine.
If a Jew actively converts to another religion, be it Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, or whatever, he loses the right to be called a Jew. Period. Of Jewish heritage, fine. But not a Jew. On the other hand, you can be an agnostic, deist, or even Buddhist Jew because none require active conversion away from the religion and actually can coexist side by side. For instance, the synagogue I go to is a reconstructionist synagogue which is essentially agnostic.
This is total contradictory. Agnostism is opposed to Jewish religious faith in a monotheistic God. You ARE converting away from the religion by being agnostic. It doesn't make sense to say that being Hindu makes you non-Jewish, yet being Buddhist does.
Is being Jewish like a switch? You are or your aren't? This isn't true with other ethnicities. You can be "half-Hispanic". Your identity can be mixed. Sometimes thinking in boxes is exclusionary and harmful. The modern US is all about destroying past ethnic, racial, and religious boxes and identities.
I wold suspect that being Jewish is much like being Indian in that there are three elements to being one of the people: genetics which define us (you kinda have to have the blood and actual NDN parents - at least one anyway), native family that sustains us, and community recognition and involvement which preserves who we are culturally. Without these things you kinda just make claims and take those things you learned from the media or some book and end up looking foolish to those who actually are from those communities. From my observations, the Jewish people, being the very distinctive people they are, see it the same way -- the three elements. People outside these communities who take a made up Jewish or Indian (or whatever else) identity to themselves just don't get why those who really are from those cultures don't like it and kinda get mad.
This is sort of wrong. Jewish people are genetically diverse. There are askenazic, Sephardic, Mizrahi, even Ethiopian.
I wouldn't saying being Indian (I believe you are referring to American Indian) is very genetic these days either. For one, American Indians are so mixed with other ethnicities that the genes that would be unique to one or the other would be all jumbled up (even the people deemed acceptably "Indian" by you). Another thing, genes and ethnicity/race have complicated, not simple relationships.
In the end I want to say:
Identity is fluid and varied. Don't get angry because someone doesn't want to fit in your box.
However, preaching at its least harmful and intrusive, can still be annoying as crap. At its most, it can be deceitful and destructive. Just as other's should respect how you view your identity, you should respect other's relgions and worldviews.
Also, its offensive to say that Christianity is a sect of Judaism. Perhaps it was its own little Jewish cult/sect at the beginning, but it has become developed into its own major world religion, distinct and separate from Jewish religious beliefs. Jewish faith does not include Jesus in its teaching.
I wouldn't saying being Indian (I believe you are referring to American Indian) is very genetic these days either. For one, American Indians are so mixed with other ethnicities that the genes that would be unique to one or the other would be all jumbled up. Another thing, genes and ethnicity/race have complicated, not simple relationships.
On one hand you are correct, on the other you are not. One hand affects enrollment and federal recognition. The other has to do with community recognition. To be enrolled you must meet that nation's blood quantum (BQ). For my nation (Comanche), you must be 1/8th (recently changed from 1/4th in 2002). Until the 2002 change, should my daughters marry non-Comanche, my future grand-children could not be enrolled. Now they can. BTW, there are still many full-bloods of the various nations around.
Each nation has its own BQ requirements - some nations are higher, some really don't have a BQ requirement at all like the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma (proof of ancestry for them). Now that being said, the point was that isn't all that makes up cultural identity. It is way more than that. These people that say, "I'm part this or that", well that blood doesn't make you this or that. It is also familial ties and community recognition and involvement. Growing up in that community, knowing your language, knowing your stories, knowing your traditions, dances, songs and such...these in addition to blood is what makes us part of the nation. There are those who were adopted in the nation who were not blood Comanche, but were recognized by the people as part of the people though they cannot qualify for enrollment. The same is true for descendents who do not meet BQ. It seemed to me the same or similar mindset was true of the Jewish community.
Last edited by Fullback32; 06-18-2009 at 02:18 PM..
This is total contradictory. Agnostism is opposed to Jewish religious faith in a monotheistic God. You ARE converting away from the religion by being agnostic. It doesn't make sense to say that being Hindu makes you non-Jewish, yet being Buddhist does.
No, you're not. Agnosticism is a way of questioning G-d- something that is encouraged and expected in Judaism. Similarly, Buddhism is not accepting another deity, its adopting a new framework of viewing life. That framework happens to mesh very well with Judaism. You can follow Buddhist principles and still believe in G-d. By accepting another God, you are no longer Jewish. Becoming more secular is not the same and while it may not be ideal for the Jewish culture, it is not negating your Jewishness. Converting away from Judaism is.
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Is being Jewish like a switch? You are or your aren't? This isn't true with other ethnicities. You can be "half-Hispanic". Your identity can be mixed. Sometimes thinking in boxes is exclusionary and harmful. The modern US is all about destroying past ethnic, racial, and religious boxes and identities.
My rabbi explains it more that "Jewish" is less of an ethnicity and more of a nationhood.
I'll give another example. Recently, I was traveling in Scotland. While there, I heard many people (generally Americans) telling the Scottish people that they met that they were Scottish. The Scottish people are used to this and would ask with a sarcastic look on their face, "Oh, so you were born here?" "No." "So, your parents are from Scotland." "No, they're actually from New York. But my dad's grandmother was born in Edinburgh!" "Then you're not Scottish."
That's not saying you can't say you're of Scottish heritage or enjoy bagpipes, whisky, and haggis. Of course you can celebrate your heritage. But that doesn't make you Scottish.
I'm amazed at the audacity by some people here to expect Jews to welcome them with open arms when they are, in fact, not considered Jews by the mainstream community. It's downright offensive. No one is questioning a person's Jewish heritage REGARDLESS of what religion or culture they currently possess, but Jewish heritage alone with no connection to the community does NOT make you a Jew.
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