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Victorianpunk answered you well enough but as an atheist inclined to be evangelical, I think I have some input.
It's probably true that there's no-one so fanatical as a convert. Now I've been a lifetime atheist but I share the same zeal as your evangelical atheist. It's because there was a time I shared the deconversion. I'd never been a believer but there was a time when I became aware of the theist scam. I realized all the trickery, craftiness, dishonesty and misdirection of theism. And I became indignant as deconverts who have now realized how they were fooled have become indignant. Of course, we want to tell everyone else.
So, because you have observed some bad things about religion and see no need for it in your own life you see a need to go around preaching against it. Well, I have, throughout my entire life, observed many, many awful romantic relationships. I have never been in one and truly believe I could be happy without ever being in a romantic relationship...so, how much sense would it make if I ran around teaching about the "craftiness, dishonesty and misdirection of people in love"?
I mean look at Rihanna! She had the crap beaten out of her by her boyfriend and thinks like that happen all the time! So, love is awful and the world would be a better place without it because it causes pain and I don't need it!
But, you say, lots of people are indeed honest, genuine, and happy in love? Well, I say that lots of people are indeed honest, genuine, and happy as a part of a religion.
You have awful cases involving religion (revernd Jerry Falwell) and great cases of religion (reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr) just as you have awful cases involving love (Rihanna) and great cases involving love (like my grand parents who were married 55 years and died within days of each other because they literally could not live apart from one another)
The anti-theists judging all religion by it's worse examples and attacking all religion and religious people because of it is just as stupid as an asexual attacking romantic love because of it's worse examples.
If love was religion, I, personally, would be an agnostic. I want to have a relationship to see if it can be real, but I am not holding my breath and do believe I could live without it. However, I do not run around preaching the evils of romantic love.
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Theists would love to persuade us to shut up and allow them a clear field. Then they could get on brainwashing the populace and suppressing question. Until every bit of theist prosetelyzation, preaching, misinformation and indoctrination is immediately countered by the other view, the doubts, the questions, the alternatives and the information and facts they so carefully leave out, atheists have to speak out and keep speaking out.
So many generalizations! Look...when was the last time a Gnostic, a Wiccan, or a Zen Buddhist ran around "brainwashing the populace" and "suppressing the question"? You can say that about some theist, of course, but all of us?
Do you realize that the first Christian Gnostic priest I met told me that any Gnostic who has not argued with a Gnostic priest and walked away not agreeing with him on at least one point is not a good Gnostic? Encouraging arguing with authority and encouraging questioning and considering faith to be useless and close to sinfull...does that sound like any of your generalizations?
Or how about a Wiccan who is completely solitary in practice and bothers no one? What, is that the same as a member of the Moral Majority?
People need to realize that when they say "theists" they need to include that often forgotten word "some". I can never be a part of any religion or spiritual path involved in any of the things you mentioned. Fortunately, the often ignored fact is that there are plenty of religions and spiritual paths that are nothing like that. That is one thing anti-theist almost always ignore.
Take Christopher Hitchens for example. He says that "all religions have an hatred of human sexuality in their theology"...I suppose he never heard of Wicca, in which one of the most important holidays, Beltain, is the celebration of the God and Goddess having sexual intercourse before they wed on Litha!
As for semi-literate, most anti-theists are the same semi-literate rednecks as the Christians they argue with, but that's not to say one group is less literate than the other.
I agree 100%. When ever I see a crazed anti-theist arguing with a crazed Christian fundamentalist, I can't help but draw a comparrison to the battle of Stalingrad. Two titanic forces, both completely evil, fighting it out in a long, bloody war....with the good guys, on another front somewhere not sure what to make of it.
Rather than say science and religion cause good or evil, I prefer to say that people are the cause of both.
IF you would please excuse injecting theology into the issue I will say "AMEN"!
People will find any excuse to kill, conquer, and destroy. It is simply a part of human nature which we must rise above someday to become more human than human.
Well, thing is, it is easier to be a prick online then in real life.
And here you go and prove your own point!
Going on a forum were people are saying good things about their relationship with GOD and flaming it is something any idiot can do, while doing so in a church is something few of these anti-theists have the balls to do.
And what would be the point of preaching to the unpreachable?
I think it's just the anonymous nature of the internet that makes it happen. A lot of these anti-theists are very young (as in Highschool) and they like trying to look older and smarter then they really are. Most atheist are just normal folks but the internet just attracts the extremist in all catagories.
Even amongst the religious? BTW, what is your name and address, or e-mail address so we can all talk to you or visit directly? You wouldn't be so damned bold or critical if you had to be accountable. Have YOU ever had the personal fortitude and organizational mental wherewithall to be in a real face-to-face debate forum about this stuff?
I have, and it wasn't pretty for the other side, because in such situations, they can't just yell you down, deflect the argument, run endless straw arguments, use ad hominems (like your entire post is here, BTW...) or default to the "Goddunnit" pseudo-argument.
It wasn't my particular inellectual presence or ego or arrogance, but rather that of an unbending judge who saw them for what they were. Charlatans and fakers. Versus my well-thought-out logical arguments. oh no! Benny Hinn one of your heros of logic and truth?
I was on a messageboard for race relations and all kinds of neo-nazi idiots started showing up.
You comparing atheists to neo-Nazi idiots? Nice.
Same thing:
There yah go: A nice, intelligent semicryptic ad hominem against those who simply disagree with your "silly belief system"! (to the mod: I'm just making a point here with that particular comment; you know me better than to step into such a trap! Our commenter on the other hand; not so much.)
They will be more then happy to spill that filth on a message board, but will they have the nerve to say those things at a NAACP convention?
A few personal observations to this really silly thread (Even spelled "atheist" wrong: what, exactly, is an "athiet"?):
Rather, in my experience, atheists are well educated, well-organized, independantly minded logicians. Almost every scientist and engineer and realist operating in the real world that I've been associated with either are or became atheists. I know a few younger atheists, but most are like me, mature and independantly minded.
The younger ones are, yep, mostly college types who have been taught to think for themselves, something that Christiantiy abhores and suppresses. With the result that the Church collects a mass of bleeting sheeple, (*BSMs, as I've previously defined) which is precisely what they need. Oh, and generous tithing. They need that too.
One of the more interesting and notable historical facts of religion is that the Church and it's willing, milling & obedient acolytes would happily step on the necks of any that try independant thought. The Spanish Inquisition, book burnings, the Ohio Board of Education; all fine examples of open-minded theists enjoying cheerful and open-minded discussion with us evil, stupid high-school atheists.
BTW, this is an open forum for religion & philosophy, so what, exactly, would you expect to find here? Discussions on macrame'?
Over on the Religion sub-forum, we do not generally go and invade and spew our vitriol, unlike you unaccepting types who wander over here where we're having our own discussions, often with those theists who care to ask us why we think like we do. No-oneforced them to participate here, and we are not required to accept your particular point of view, as you are not required to accept ours. It's just a discussion, FurChrissSake!
And then you fire off a few badly aimed rounds, thinking yourselves to be so righteous and better than us. Just like the Church has always done, sadly.
Of course, you'd rather we were nowhere to be found on this planet, I understand.
Well, go on... attack mode, pit bull mentality, unsupportable accusations. Don't worry; unlike you, we can handle it and are used to it and even welcome it. It's humorous, and fun. As my friends in my military past referred to them: it presents a "target-rich environment!".
Fire!
Last edited by rifleman; 06-20-2009 at 11:22 AM..
Reason: typoz
So, science has done some good, and some evil? Well, religion has also done some good and some evil.
So...it appears we are even.
We would be if any of those things you list above were actually science. You've done a good job of citing examples of pseudo-science and quackery, tho you've omitted creationism and intelligent design from the list and they should be at the top..
A few personal observations to this really silly thread (Even spelled "atheist" wrong: what, exactly, is an "athiet"?):
Rather, in my experience, atheists are well educated, well-organized, independantly minded logicians. Almost every scientist and engineer and realist operating in the real world that I've been associated with either are or became atheists. I know a few younger atheists, but most are like me, mature and independantly minded.
The younger ones are, yep, mostly college types who have been taught to think for themselves, something that Christiantiy abhores and suppresses. With the result that the Church collects a mass of bleeting sheeple, (*BSMs, as I've previously defined) which is precisely what they need. Oh, and generous tithing. They need that too.
One of the more interesting and notable historical facts of religion is that the Church and it's willing, milling & obedient acolytes would happily step on the necks of any that try independant thought. The Spanish Inquisition, book burnings, the Ohio Board of Education; all fine examples of open-minded theists enjoying cheerful and open-minded discussion with us evil, stupid high-school atheists.
BTW, this is, specifically, the Atheist's sub-forum, So what, exactly, would you expect to find here? Discussions on macrame'?
Over on the Religion sub-forum, we do not generally go and invade and spew our vitriol, unlike you unaccepting types who wander over here where we're having our own discussions, often with those theists who care to ask us why we think like we do. No-oneforced them to participate here, and we are not required to accept your particular point of view, as you are not required to accept ours. It's just a discussion, FurChrissSake!
And then you fire off a few badly aimed rounds, thinking yourselves to be so righteous and better than us. Just like the Church has always done, sadly.
Of course, you'd rather we were nowhere to be found on this planet, I understand.
Well, go on... attack mode, pit bull mentality, unsupportable accusations. Don't worry; unlike you, we can handle it and are used to it and even welcome it. It's humorous, and fun. As my friends in my military past referred to them: it presents a "target-rich environment!".
Fire!
Okay, sense you obviously have very poor reading comprehension abilities, please note what I am saying here in two sentences:
1) I have no problem with athiests, as being an atheist is a completely understandable position and I have nothing against atheism. 2) Someone who bashes religion and attacks people just because they are religion is an anti-theist, and not an atheist, and it is the anti-theist I have a problem with and not the atheist.
Please read those two sentences over and over again until they sink in and then attempt to come back with a reply because I did not even bother to read the rest of your message after I saw that you did not grasp the fundamentals of what I was saying and therefore, anything you said in that message was based on a false pretense.
EDIT: actually, I just noticed you said this
Quote:
BTW, this is, specifically, the Atheist's sub-forum, So what, exactly, would you expect to find here? Discussions on macrame'?
Actually, this thread exists on the general "Religion and Philosophy" board...for someone who trumps "logical reasoning" you certainly are not observant of the "logical nature of reading the topic before replying"
By all means, continue. Granted, you will probably go back to listening to Fall Out Boy and cutting yourself like the good little fifteen year old Anti-theist Emo Kid that you are, but ohh well.
Last edited by victorianpunk; 06-20-2009 at 11:41 AM..
We would be if any of those things you list above were actually science. You've done a good job of citing examples of pseudo-science and quackery, tho you've omitted creationism and intelligent design from the list and they should be at the top..
Actually, the Tuskegee experiment was conducted by PHds with genuine credentials, as was the Eugenics movement. You may know call them "pseudo sciences" and "quackery", but at the time, they were the cutting egde, accepted sciences of the day.
Also, I was talking about genuine sciences, of which Young Earth Creationism does not fit, in my oppinion.
You can deny the facts all you want but they are still there. Mainstream, accepted science has caused just as much pain to the world as religion has. Almost all scienticific minds of the early 20th century considered blacks to be genetically inferior and had the science to prove it.
But science has changed, you say? Well, in many cases so has religion changed (the Pope apologizing for the Crusades, inter-faith dialogue that would have been unthinkable two hundred years ago etc)
Also...is nuclear science a "pseudo science" and "quackery"? No. Alright. and do nuclear warheads exist? They do. What would happen if the creation of the rational sciences and physics (i.e., nuclear war) was unleashed on the world?... Nuclear winter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
All the Crusades, Jyhads and inquestions combined could never hope to destroy as much life as the sciences could. This is not an opinion, it is a fact.
And yet, back on page one, you specifically reference back to the enchantingly intelligent broad-based comments against atheists per se by the troll OP (or was it athiets; perhaps I just misunderstood the terms of this discussion...).
So forgive me my trangressions. I of course only refer to those who fire point-blank without aiming. As you have done with your many subsequent comments, such as comparing neo-Zazis with anti-theists or atheists.
BTW, atheists are, generally, anti-theist, I'd agree. "A"-"Theist". Hmmm... Let's think here for a moment....
Well, it's off to the real world for a while.
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Or, alternately, and with more intelligence....
