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I've read in a number of posts that the criteria for heaven is to be a good person - it doesn't really matter what you believe. However, I'm really curious about the yardstick for this goodness. Exactly how 'good' do you have to be? Who determines whether a person is good enough? Does it take one sin or a thousand before you are disqualified?
I'm not being disingenuous, I've truly never entertained this idea before and would love to see the reasoning behind it. Thanks!
Well I am Christian, but I do believe that all good people go to heaven. "Good" is an subjective term and difficult to define in the context you are asking. But for me it means people that go through life doing no harm to others, treating all with respect, loving all as their brother and sister. These people as all humans are imperfect, Christian or not, and will have sinned, irregardless of intention, but if they repent they will be forgiven and still go to heaven.
The theory that you have to accept Jesus as Christ in order to go to heaven is a Christian belief therefore it doen't apply to those of other faiths such as Jewish, Muslim, Pagan, Hindi, atheist, agnostic, etc. These faiths may well argue that as a Christian you will not go to heaven, because they do not believe as you do. So to hold those people to that belief is unfair and not very Christian like, in my mind anyway. I have always wondered what would I believe if I had inadvertantly been born into a family of another religion, probably whatever I was raised to believe. Probably not mainstream but it is what I have always believed and thought to be more in line with how Jesus acted towards others, even those that did not believe he was Christ, when He was on earth.
Thank you, Irishmom. I really appreciate your thoughts. However, your post confused me a little when you said 'if they repent'. If they are not believers in something/some religion to whom would they repent?
Also, who would be the determiner of whether they were good enough, if they are, let's say, athiest? What if they slipped and treated just one person badly, would that be enough to keep them out of heaven?
Again, I'm trying to understand the reasoning behind this idea. I have the assurance of my salvation, purchased through the blood of Jesus. I don't have to worry if I'm good enough - I know I'll never be. How does someone live under the pressure of believing they have to 'earn' their way into heaven .... i.e. to be good enough?
Now I understand it if they don't believe in an afterlife. But if you believe in heaven, then you are gambling your entire eternity if you're wrong. I can't get my mind around that one.
Any other people want to enlighten me? I would love to hear you. Thanks!
Thank you, Irishmom. I really appreciate your thoughts. However, your post confused me a little when you said 'if they repent'. If they are not believers in something/some religion to whom would they repent?
Also, who would be the determiner of whether they were good enough, if they are, let's say, athiest? What if they slipped and treated just one person badly, would that be enough to keep them out of heaven?
Again, I'm trying to understand the reasoning behind this idea. I have the assurance of my salvation, purchased through the blood of Jesus. I don't have to worry if I'm good enough - I know I'll never be. How does someone live under the pressure of believing they have to 'earn' their way into heaven .... i.e. to be good enough?
Now I understand it if they don't believe in an afterlife. But if you believe in heaven, then you are gambling your entire eternity if you're wrong. I can't get my mind around that one.
Any other people want to enlighten me? I would love to hear you. Thanks!
First of all this is my belief within my personal faith, so I can only explain what I think. So if I was asked I would tell you that God would decide if they were "good" enough...just as we will all be judged when we get to the gates of heaven.
If they repent...to me, means that as anyone who does something wrong (and this is anything we would consider a sin, no many how many times) and realizes it is wrong and are truly sorry and remorseful and ask for forgiveness from whoever they deem the higher being is, they are forgiven. The same as we are forgiven when we ask God for fogiveness. In the case of atheists they would ask whom ever was affected by what they did wrong for forgivness and that would be enough for them to be forgiven. The point is they have apologized and shown sincere remorse, which in my mind is equal to repenting within the Christian faith.
I think that anyone who believes in an afterlife or higher being is gambling with their eternity because they could be wrong. Not to say that you should doubt your own faith, but that anyone in the same position of a different faith would doubt yours as you do theirs...we all think we are right and will have to wait and see after we die who was. I just think God knows and understands that people are born into different faiths and although some people learn of Christianity and do convert some don't because like you they truly believe as they do or because they don't ever get exposed to other religions to question their own. Why would He punish them for that, if they led good lives in their chosen faith?
Atheists although they do not believe in life after death or any higher being (and I am sorry if I am wrong on this, that is what I consider an atheist to be) for lack of faith, are also judged (again like all of us according to my belief) by God and given the same consideration as everyone else. I do not think that there is an experation date on accepting Jesus as Christ or repenting...so I like to think they get their shot when they arrive at the gates of heaven along with anyone else of other faith.
Again this is my belief, doesn't have anything to do with any teachings or scripture, just how I like to believe God would treat all whom He created and loves as His children.
Thank you, Irishmom for giving your thoughts and for being honest about the basis for them. I also believe in a merciful and loving God, but of course that is balanced by his Holiness. Throughout scripture, especially the OT, we see that the Holiness of God cannot look upon sin. Thus the reason for the Holy of Holies in the Temple and the High Priest who could only go in once a year and even then had a rope tied around his ankle because if he had not repented and performed the cleansing rituals properly, he would have been struck dead upon entering 'the presence of God on earth' which at that time dwelled in the Holy of Holies in the Temple. The rope was to pull him back out!
I've always been taught that when Jesus cried on the cross..."My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken me?" It was because for the first time in His earthly life, he felt the absence of God. After taking the sins of the world upon Himself at the cross, then his relationship with God was broken - i.e. God could not 'look' on him.
The entirety of scripture (if you believe the Bible) resounds with God's holiness and Christ's sacrifice to cover us with His rightousness and bring us into relation with God. I guess that's why I'm having trouble with God accepting people just on the basis of their being good.
I, too have had questions concerning what God does with those who have never heard or understood the good news of the gospel. God proved over and over in the Bible that He is patient and longsuffering - willing to go to any cost that none should be lost. However, for those who have heard and rejected His invitation, would trying to be good in and of themselves be acceptable? That is the conundrum for me.
I, too have had questions concerning what God does with those who have never heard or understood the good news of the gospel. God proved over and over in the Bible that He is patient and longsuffering - willing to go to any cost that none should be lost. However, for those who have heard and rejected His invitation, would trying to be good in and of themselves be acceptable? That is the conundrum for me.
There is a book that explains the part about people who have never come in contact with the gospel...but I can't remember the name of it...a good friend gave it to me when we had this very discussion (she thought I was crazy too. ) but it was an explanation of what is written in Romans. I will call her and get the title of it and PM you with it tomorrow, it was interesting.
As for the rest, like I said it's only based on my belief of who God is too me. I think it's kind of nice though.
Ok, I'm sorry if I appear to be a little off topic...I really cannot answer your question since I am a believer and love Jesus. However, after reading some of the posts (I did not quote, because I do not want to offend anyone) I have questions of my own regarding your OP as well as some points to make.
#1. How can someone say they are Christian yet NOT believe what the Bible says and teaches?
#2. How can someone think that believing in a higher power is a "gamble" with eternity? Would the Atheists be the main one's gambling on this subject?
#3 I will have to ask the person who told me this where the verse is again, but it is my understanding that if one does not know that it is sin, he is free from guilt. However, after being taught the truth he should repent (which, by the way...repent means to turn away from <sin> not be remorseful...although being remorseful is what makes one repent). I will find out the verse that states this and update
It really kind of amazes me that there are so many out there willing and ready to take a stand against Christians, however, I have not seen any of the people I am talking about post on here. Maybe tomorrow they will be out and about and can try to give you the answers you are looking for
Great post Pianogal! BTW...I SOOOO want to learn to play the piano maybe some day
There is a book that explains the part about people who have never come in contact with the gospel...but I can't remember the name of it...a good friend gave it to me when we had this very discussion (she thought I was crazy too. ) but it was an explanation of what is written in Romans. I will call her and get the title of it and PM you with it tomorrow, it was interesting.
As for the rest, like I said it's only based on my belief of who God is too me. I think it's kind of nice though.
What you've been saying almost sounds like universalism, which is basically the belief that all people will, eventually, be saved, through Jesus. That death is not the dividing line. And, hell, in the traditional "eternal" sense does not exist. Yes, I know that there are Biblical verses that "say" otherwise, (I was raised in a fundamentalist evangelical tradition), however, Christian universalists believe that these verses have been mistranslated. They also point out many other verses that appear to support their idea. I'm not real good at explaining it, but I have read up on it, a little. I know most Christian people would not agree with them, but it makes more sense to me, than to believe that God is going to lose most of his creation, (i.e. people)!! Google the term, "Christian universalism", and you will find some interesting stuff out there, and much better explainations of why they believe it, (I, myself, had not even heard of it, until a few years ago. Stumbled across it, while doing a study on tithing, of all things!). Not saying that I agree with everything they say, but I do think they are on to something, here. Keeping a handful of believers, because they were smart enough, (and, were lucky enough to be in the right place, at the right time), to hear and respond to the gospel, while losing the rest, seems like a very poor track record to me. I wouldn't call that Good News, never mind the "Best News", (being slightly facetious).
What you've been saying almost sounds like universalism, which is basically the belief that all people will, eventually, be saved, through Jesus. That death is not the dividing line. And, hell, in the traditional "eternal" sense does not exist. Yes, I know that there are Biblical verses that "say" otherwise, (I was raised in a fundamentalist evangelical tradition), however, Christian universalists believe that these verses have been mistranslated. They also point out many other verses that appear to support their idea. I'm not real good at explaining it, but I have read up on it, a little. I know most Christian people would not agree with them, but it makes more sense to me, than to believe that God is going to lose most of his creation, (i.e. people)!! Google the term, "Christian universalism", and you will find some interesting stuff out there, and much better explainations of why they believe it, (I, myself, had not even heard of it, until a few years ago. Stumbled across it, while doing a study on tithing, of all things!). Not saying that I agree with everything they say, but I do think they are on to something, here. Keeping a handful of believers, because they were smart enough, (and, were lucky enough to be in the right place, at the right time), to hear and respond to the gospel, while losing the rest, seems like a very poor track record to me. I wouldn't call that Good News, never mind the "Best News", (being slightly facetious).
Seriously there is an actual group out there that believes like me...oh and I thought I was an original as I came to these conclusions after reading the bible and interpreting it for myself....who knew! Thanks I will definitely look into that!
#1. How can someone say they are Christian yet NOT believe what the Bible says and teaches? If you believe in Jesus as Christ you are a Christian.
#2. How can someone think that believing in a higher power is a "gamble" with eternity? Would the Atheists be the main one's gambling on this subject? No one really knows if there is a life after death or which God (faith) has it right, in that sense we are all gambling that we have chosen to believe or not believe the right faith.#3 I will have to ask the person who told me this where the verse is again, but it is my understanding that if one does not know that it is sin, he is free from guilt. However, after being taught the truth he should repent (which, by the way...repent means to turn away from <sin> not be remorseful...although being remorseful is what makes one repent). I will find out the verse that states this and update That is correct you can't go to heaven a sinner, and repenting is the only way to be forgiven from sin but to sin you have to know you are sinning. However I don't think too many people would get away with major sins on that condition because knowing right from wrong goes to basic humanity and most people have an innate ability to recognize that.It really kind of amazes me that there are so many out there willing and ready to take a stand against Christians, - As there are Christians who are willing and ready to take a stand against those that do not believe as they do
Last edited by irishmom; 05-04-2007 at 01:26 PM..
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) but it was an explanation of what is written in Romans. I will call her and get the title of it and PM you with it tomorrow, it was interesting.
maybe some day 
), however, Christian universalists believe that these verses have been mistranslated. They also point out many other verses that appear to support their idea. I'm not real good at explaining it, but I have read up on it, a little. I know most Christian people would not agree with them, but it makes more sense to me, than to believe that God is going to lose most of his creation, (i.e. people)!! Google the term, "Christian universalism", and you will find some interesting stuff out there, and much better explainations of why they believe it, (I, myself, had not even heard of it, until a few years ago. Stumbled across it, while doing a study on tithing, of all things!
). Not saying that I agree with everything they say, but I do think they are on to something, here.
