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Thank you. I rather like your OP, I have not heard it put that way myself, and I think it might be a useful argument.
I am a bit disappointed that none of the christians on the board have posted. Not surprised, as they seem to avoid the tough arguments, preferring to walk the well trodden ground of flood geology, problem of evil, and the like.
I'll second that. I had a friend on shrooms and he swore up and down a tree showed him the way home when he was 'lost'. Of course, he was 'lost' in my backyard which was the side of a hill and we could see him the whole time.
I'm firmly for the shroom theory.
I think it is unthinkable to some people that their ancient heroes could have actually been abusing desert hallucinogens. I mean, after all, isn't it quite possible that people wandering in a desert or wilderness or chilling on a mountain for 40 days might make such a thing VERY possible? Just really think about it - people seeing fire and pillars of smoke. They hear a mountain talking to them and they see a guy with his face all lit up. Then you have another guy sitting in a cave claiming an angel told him to recite or else.
Thank you. I rather like your OP, I have not heard it put that way myself, and I think it might be a useful argument.
I am a bit disappointed that none of the christians on the board have posted. Not surprised, as they seem to avoid the tough arguments, preferring to walk the well trodden ground of flood geology, problem of evil, and the like.
Actually I put up lots of topics of a "Christian" nature where I question their concepts, beliefs and holy book but for many of them there is no room for debate on any of these things and they cry foul. As a result, I cannot post them in their forum so I put them here where less of them may tread.
Thanks for the compliment. I really is a simple question but there really can only be one sensible answer and it is not what some people would want to accept because of the obvious possible unraveling of an entire faith they place so much stock in.
Well as I think more about this, remember those three accounts in the book of Genesis where god supposedly has a conversation with himself? Who heard him talking to himself when he said, "let us make man in our own image" or "lest the man become as one of us" or "man has become like us so let US go down to visit him!"
What about the story in Job where some lucky person had the opportunity to actually listen in on a conversation between god and satan.
Really, how is this explained?
God wrote the beginning of Genesis 1 himself, since he is the only one to have known these events. So he could be the one to write what he said to himself. Sometimes you talk to yourself, yet you think that God can't?
Let's see who listened to God when he talked to Satan...
Job 1:6: Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. 7: And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
So, Satan is Talking to God in the presence of the "sons of God", these are righteous men, not angels and Satan is among them.
So, any number of these righteous men could have written the conversation down. We know that "Sons of God" is refering to humans.
Luke 3:38: "Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God." (Adam is specifically noted as a son of God!)
1John3:1a: "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God".
1John3:2a: "Beloved, now are we the sons of God".
John 1:12: "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name".
And Job 38:4 "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5: Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6: Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7:When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"
The morning stars are the Angels that sang together, and the sons of God were the men who shouted for Joy.
See: Gen 4:26: "And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD". This is when the Sons of God shouted for Joy, at the beginning of creation.
Yeah, those tiny little devils (Psilocybins) have popped up all over my front lawn this fall...Could it be a sign? If I ate 'em would I hear or see god?
And Who was there when God put all those plagues on the Egyptians? All of Egypt and All the Hebrews or in other words, Millions of People.
Who watched God destroy Pharoh's armies in the Sea? Millions of Jews?
Who listened and saw Jesus after the resurrection? Many in the upper room, two on the road, over 500 as he assended into heaven!
Who saw God write with his hand on the wall to prophesy the new riegn of Darius the Mede? The entire persian court!
Who saw Jesus heal the blind, cure the sick, make the lame man walk, cure a man of a deformed hand in the temple? Multitudes in Israel!
Who saw the fire come down and burn up all the water and offering and sacrifice on the altar made by Elijah? All of the worshipers of Baal!
So, there are many examples when God talks to people in private and in public. Just because you do not know who had the information of a secret meeting does not mean it didn't happen, it is just that it is not revealed.
So if god is so smart and can do anything why didn't he just write the darn book perfectly himself and slap it down here? Why all the trouble with all these different people?
The bible is a colaboration between God and Man. So the book is just like the nature of Jesus Christ who is 100% God and 100% man. See the comparison? That is why Jesus is called "the word"! Because the bibles dual nature as the 100% word of God and 100% word of man matches Jesus' nature.
Read John 1: 1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2: The same was in the beginning with God. 3: All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4: In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5: And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
So, will the darkness in you comprehend not what I have said concerning the Christ, the word of God, Jesus Christ?
God said he was the Alpha and Omega, the beggining and the end.
Jesus spoke Arimaic! So he said "I am Aleph and Tav" or in other words "The strong sacrifice"! or "The bull upon the sticks"! Depending how you translate it. This is just Jesus profesying how he was to die. Tav is a cross in ancient hebrew characters.
And Who was there when God put all those plagues on the Egyptians? All of Egypt and All the Hebrews or in other words, Millions of People.
Who watched God destroy Pharoh's armies in the Sea? Millions of Jews?
Who listened and saw Jesus after the resurrection? Many in the upper room, two on the road, over 500 as he assended into heaven!
Who saw God write with his hand on the wall to prophesy the new riegn of Darius the Mede? The entire persian court!
Who saw Jesus heal the blind, cure the sick, make the lame man walk, cure a man of a deformed hand in the temple? Multitudes in Israel!
Who saw the fire come down and burn up all the water and offering and sacrifice on the altar made by Elijah? All of the worshipers of Baal!
So, there are many examples when God talks to people in private and in public. Just because you do not know who had the information of a secret meeting does not mean it didn't happen, it is just that it is not revealed.
Unfortunately for Christianity, the only evidence of ANY of the events you have mentioned is....yep, you guessed it.....the Bible.
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