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Life would be so much easier if I weren't searching, if I just thought "I'm going to heaven when I die because I subscribe to these teachings!"
JerZ,
I know that we have spoken before and I have been watching and wondering how your were. Please know that I never mean to hurt, aleinate, offend, etc. anyone. I have prayed for you many times because you sounds like you are struggling.
I know that I don't know you and that I have not been down your road, but sometimes I hear so many parellels in our lives that I feel drawn to you. I can relate (a little) to what you are saying about it being easier to be a Christian. I have always considered myself a Christian. I was brought up to believe in God and Jesus Christ as my Saviour. I have never questioned that. But I am not a Bible scholar. I cannot quote you exact verse and would not try. I can remember in my earlier life being jeolous of people who had "faith". I believed in Jesus, but the whole "Going to heaven when I die" thing, I just wasn't sure about that part. I would see people watch their loved ones pass away and they would almost seem to rejoice. They just KNEW they were going to a better place and their suffering was over. I can remember my sister telling me a story about some kids that lived next door to her whose bikes had been stolen and they didn't care. They just knew that God would take care of them and get them their bikes bike. Now to you and me, that sounds pretty hokey, right? I mean their bikes were stolen!! Did they just think that the person who took them was going to bring them back? Well, guess what? They did. I've got to tell you. I still thought it was crazy. But the Bible tells us, "the faith of a mustard seed". And those kids had that faith. You may have read in my posts that I have real trouble in my prayer life. I don't really have faith that my prayers will be answered. At least not in the way that I want them to be. I can actually recall clearly one time when I had a pretty stern conversation with God about how he answered my prayers. I was a simple prayer. My Church had called me last minute and wanted me to address the congreation on "Time, Talent and Treasure", and being that I am Catholic, I am sure that they meant "Focus on Treasure". I have addressed my Church family on a few other occasions, things that I felt truly moved to do. I have always prayer and asked the Holy Spirit to guide me; to be my words and I have always felt that I did well. Well, this time, I went before God as I always do and asked for his guidance, for him to give me the words, and I swear to you, every time I asked I would hear Him say, "Wing it!" Now I'm not the kind of person to "wing it". I am not by any stretch of the imagination a public speaker. I like my words to be written down COMPLETELY! And wing it was just not what I was looking for. Believe me, I told God in no uncertain terms that I was looking for something more like, I don't know, Words on a tablet? Yep, that would suit me just fine. So, I worked and worked, got MY words down on paper and went to service. The Priest presenting Mass that evening was new and did not know me from Adam. He asked to see what I would be saying, So I gave him my notes. Guess what? There was no way that he was going to let me say those to HIS congregation. Now mind you, I was p---ed! How dare he! It was not HIS congregation, heck I'd been there longer than him. If anything, these were MY people! But, guess what I kept hearing? "Wing it". So, after a very quick cry (I'm a very emotional person), I went and sat by one of my very greatest friends and she noticed something was wrong. I informed her that Father did not like my words and I was going to just wing it. So I prayed, asked God to be with me and from what I understand, I did a great job. I'm not sure that I could have even told you what I said. I'm not telling you that I was posessed, but boy was I nervous!! But, I laid it all at Jesus' feet and walked up there in Faith and made it through it.
I know you don't want to hear about FAITH, but I think for a Christian, that's the "big picture". I mean, it has to be. Because if we were to take evey thing in the Bible and look for scientific proof, it just wouldn't happen!
You said that maybe some people just aren't meant to "get it". I don't believe that for one minute. I believe that we are all God's children and he wants us all to come home. I can't tell you exactly when I "got it". I don't know that I would even say that I was "saved" at a specific point or that I was "born again". I always believed in Jesus! But I think that something in watching my husband and his family helped me through it. They are a very faith filled family (and they're not all Catholic). I can remeber experiencing a couple funerals with them and thinking, "wow, this is what it's all about". The joy in being able to rejoice in the fact that you know they are going to a better place was/is wonderful. My father passed away very suddenly 3 years ago and I am so greatful to have reached that point in my life before he did. It really helped me through a very hard time in my life. GOD IS GREAT and he wants you to find your way home to him. Keep looking! I promise that you will find you way home!
Oh boy,
Why are you talkng about your Christian path to God? That's not the question the OP had. She's not Christian and doesn't plan on becoming Christian. I believe she was looking for input from others who are NOT Christian, not from those who believe she'll one day "get it" .
80% of this nation (the U.S.) is Christian. It would be so much easier to be Christian.
It does sound like you're going through alot of turmoil but being "normal" as you said doesn't necessarily mean that you have to conform to the majority of the population just because you happen to live in a certain place. I'm also an atheist like a couple of the other people who posted on this thread but I think it all comes down to what makes your life fulfilling as opposed to trying to fit in. There are some very nice people on this forum who are both religious and athiests so try to look at what they have to say and search out what feels right to you. Because of the way in which you expressed yourself I don't think this is an appropriate thread for an anti-religious tirade or a religious tirade, what is really important is you as a human being and your own sense of self worth and happiness. Just put things in perspective.
Oh boy,
Why are you talkng about your Christian path to God? That's not the question the OP had. She's not Christian and doesn't plan on becoming Christian. I believe she was looking for input from others who are NOT Christian, not from those who believe she'll one day "get it" .
I'm sorry MaimounaKande is I offended you by addressing JerZ... It was certainly not my intention to offend either of you. But as you said, "you haven't been on here long enough...". I also think that it is wrong of you to assume that JerZ is not planning on becoming a Christian. Maybe I misunderstood her, but I don't believe that is ever what she said.
Things have been crazy for me today as I prepare for a job interview with two children underfoot. I want to take time to answer every post in detail. These mean so much to me.
Weather, your post did not offend me. It actually made me all tear-ey simply because you were so kind to me and I did actually see the parallels you're talking about. I was not offended. It is true that I was stating that I'm not Christian. That doesn't mean your words didn't move me. They did but I'll have to explain how later. I'm just so frazzle-headed right now that it's tough to put everything into words.
These answers are all so so good and interesting and I want to be able to take the time to really read them over again. I'm going to see if I can pop back on after the kids are in bed. I have to do all the usual pre-job stuff tonight, you know, print resumes, paint my nails, pack a bag for the kids for the sitter, yadda yadda. I will check back as soon as I can. THANK YOU, everybody, and keep that input coming if you think of anything else.
Have you read The God Delusion, God is Not Great(How religion poisons everything), Letters to a Christian Nation? If not, read them and then you will wonder how can a normal, intelligent person believe in god. I dropped god out of my life 5 years ago and never looked back and I sure feel a lot better on the inside.
Have you read The God Delusion, God is Not Great(How religion poisons everything), Letters to a Christian Nation? If not, read them and then you will wonder how can a normal, intelligent person believe in god. I dropped god out of my life 5 years ago and never looked back and I sure feel a lot better on the inside.
I guess I'll take these replies one at a time...I've already mentioned weather and will probably PM her...this is emotional for me so I'm going to have to take my time on everyone else... but I'm getting there...I'll start with this post from Art.
Art, I haven't read those books, no. But I try to stay away from the extremes of "God is absolute b*llsh*t" as much as I try to stay away from extreme Christian sites, because each pretty much is doomed to be biased, IMO. Either extreme, as far as I've seen, pretty much lies by omission, takes points out of context and seeks to make decisions for a person. I don't want anyone to make this decision for me. I want to be the one to make it.
I appreciate you answering the thread. I tend to think that "reason" includes looking at both sides of a coin. Again, this is why I avoid both Bible-thumping and "You must be a moron to believe in God" books.
Last edited by JerZ; 05-23-2007 at 11:49 PM..
Reason: ms
I don't think you're a nut! Of any "belief" that has ever come at me, reincarnation is the one that feels so real to me. I say "come at me," because this isn't something I sought myself, at least as far as I remember. It was something I heard of, and NOT in the context of "you should believe this!", and even then (I think I was 9-ish, 10-ish, somewhere around there) it just struck me right in the head as, "This is real."
I can't reconcile it with the culture I grew up in, that of predominantly Christian belief, and I don't know if that's why I just can't let go of the Christianity thing entirely and give over to karma, dharma and all those fun armas. In other words, I pretty much feel rather brainwashed as far as: There's Christianity...when you believe and are a good person...and then there's EVERYTHING ELSE, a great big collection of everything-else-ness, every single religion or belief, which must not be true because, well, it isn't Christianity. Does that make sense? In other words, in our culture it almost feels like there are the many Christians who are sure they're right, and the few questioners who are assumed to be wrong. Sadly, I haven't been able to believe and feel Christianity so that leaves me in the "wrong" group. Which therefore in a twisted psychological way makes even the things I can believe "wrong," causing me to doubt them even if they're screaming reality right in my face. It's weird...I hope this is making sense.
As far as your experiences...well, there are two ways to look at them. Perhaps more, but these are the two that come to mind for me.
One is: I wouldn't rule out the possibility of the collective unconscious. I also believe we evolve culturally as well as individually. This has nothing to do with religion or spirituality, either pro or con. It's a totally separate thing to me. So the idea would be that certain things we've learned, we somehow swap around through vibes/the unconscious/the subconscious/psychic-ness or whatever the case may be, if those things are very important in some way. I know...very weird. But it's a theory. I can't say I believe it 100%, just that it's something I heard
The other (besides coincidence, of course) could certainly be some sort of past-life experience.
Wait, I forgot a third, a much more mundane one. I think sometimes, things that happened to us when we were tiny, we were totally unable to interpret. Later they became fears of things that didn't actually happen. Very similar to a child deciding he's afraid of a monster under the bed, right at the time his parents decide to divorce. What he's actually afraid of is being abandoned by one or even both parents, and therefore being exposed to "whatever is out there". So he invents the monster. That could be in some way a reason for your scared and claustrophobic feelings; something in very early childhood that your mind wasn't able to come to grips with. ETA: Reading that back, I guess that wasn't that accurate an analogy. How about this: a child has a very, very high fever and feels as if he is "burning", literally. Later he remembers very little of the actual illness but just has a generally feeling of "being burned". He is scared of anything burning and hot near him because he knows something has burned him in the past but he can't recall what it was (when in fact it was his own body). So he develops some sort of "weird fear" of being caught in a fire, dying in a fire, being trapped in a burning building, etc.
I have thought about experiences like yours and at times have considered all three theories. If anybody else has any ideas, please chime in. This sort of stuff is very fascinating to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaimounaKande
I guess I haven't been on here long enough to know that..sorry!
I don't believe in afterlife in teh sense that I will get to look down on my friends and family, and be reunited with them in "heaven." I am afraid that I pretty much view it as the end...Yet, I will say that I have wondered about other possibilities too. Like...
I know this is going to sounds NUTS (I recognize it before I even say it..) BUT...my parents have a house built in the late 1700s. Right after they bought it, I was sleeping there and I swear I saw a woman in a long dress carrying a baby and laying the baby down. OK, so I figured I was dreaming, end of story. Later, I found out that a young mother had a child in that very room, and the baby died soon thereafter...so I started wondering...was she somehow stuck in that room b/c of this? I have no idea. Maybe it was just a dream, but it seemed very real, and the history of the room (which I didn't know at the time) took me aback. Especially b/c I think we just head into darkness and that's it when we die. And yet...
Another strange thing is two-fold, and I suppose it rather goes along w/reincarnation, although I don't think I really believe in reincarnation...(full of conflict I am!). So..I have always felt really claustrophobic around a lot of trees (like the NW...I know people love it, but I get around all those pine trees, and mountains,a dn I feel trapped). And, since I was in 6th grade (I remember it clearly) I have been absolutely obsessed with the Holocaust. Not with other human tradegy so much, but with the Holocaust absolutely. No, I have no German in me, no Jewish (that I know of) in me, so it's not about the personal connection. One day a woman, who I can only describe as a self-proclaimed "seer" (who, btw, I did not seek out), came up to me and told me (out of the blue) that she felt like I'd survived the holocaust in "another time." Again...SO wierd. I was thinking....what if the mountains had something to do with an escape or something? I dont' know. Sounds nuts. I haven't ever said any of this to anyone in real life...but here...who cares? I may as well.
My more logical side (which 99% of the time wins out) sees it kind of like a drop of water. We're a drop of water in a lake, we're picked up in the air, hover there for a while, then drop back into the lake...a reincarnation of sorts I suppose, but more the cycle of life and how we're all a part of everything. I don't know if taht made any sense at all.
So I basically believe it ends in nothingness, yet I've had these experiences that sometimes pop up in my head and make me wonder "hm...now how does THAT fit in??"
Perhaps you're now thinking "I KNOW I should have done this by PM so I could block this woman out!"
If you're still reading and willing to continue....I would really like to hear more of your thoughts on how you think of reincarnation...
Just a general comment to everyone who has responded here...this isn't to anyone in particular.
Ever have the fear that while we're scr*wing around trying to figure out our relationship with God, he'll get sick of us for not "just believing" and lose patience? I have this fear once in a while. Sometimes I feel that my family is suffering for my own lack of faith in one way or another. I mean for example, my middle son is autistic, may be mentally impaired (he will be having an EEG soon) and at four years of age is virtually non-understandable with the few words he has. This despite two solid years of therapies, pretty much daily for the past year. I sometimes wonder whether he hasn't gotten better because I'm a pain in the rear and "refuse" to believe as people have so often said I do, and therefore the type of praying that I do only aggravates God and makes him say "forget you and your family!". That kills me. When I think about that, I panic and try harder than ever to believe like a standard person but it just doesn't come.
My littlest is about to turn one year old and, although different from his next-oldest brother at the same ages, he isn't really talking yet either and the terror hits me, hard. I think about all the years of his older brother's life, I think about every time, EVERY time we stand on line at the grocery store someone has to make a comment. "Why doesn't your little boy say hello back to me? *I* raised *my* children to be polite." Or the cashier, when she's taken away my son's treat to ring it up and he doesn't understand that it hasn't disappeared for good: "Why are you crying? What's WRONG with you? We don't allow crybabies to have anything in our store." (This has happend twice at WalMart, actually, and I refuse to go in there anymore.)
I think about how we went to the Renaissance Festival this past weekend and a jester came up to him and asked his name and of course my son just stared at him, making his little noises. And the jester joked VERY loudly about how "this child is mute" and "what kind of parents are you?" and "At least he'll be a mime." Having no way of knowing, of course (he was just trying to be funny) that my son really IS mute.
But that he understands at least some of what is said to him. And he understands that he's being insulted. And he understands that if he sets foot out our front door on any old day of the week, it's going to happen again, and again and again.
I think about the baby...not talking yet, due to turn one on June 9. What if it's the same for him? I told my husband tonight, "I need to f*cking hurry up and believe, I can't stand this anymore, I'm too afraid of the next thing God is going to hurt us with for not believing in the right way!" And he gave me that I'm scared of you right now look.
Anyway, sorry to ramble on. This is a hideous way to live sometimes, I have to tell you.
Just a general comment to everyone who has responded here...this isn't to anyone in particular.
Ever have the fear that while we're scr*wing around trying to figure out our relationship with God, he'll get sick of us for not "just believing" and lose patience? I have this fear once in a while. Sometimes I feel that my family is suffering for my own lack of faith in one way or another. I mean for example, my middle son is autistic, may be mentally impaired (he will be having an EEG soon) and at four years of age is virtually non-understandable with the few words he has. This despite two solid years of therapies, pretty much daily for the past year. I sometimes wonder whether he hasn't gotten better because I'm a pain in the rear and "refuse" to believe as people have so often said I do, and therefore the type of praying that I do only aggravates God and makes him say "forget you and your family!". That kills me. When I think about that, I panic and try harder than ever to believe like a standard person but it just doesn't come.
My littlest is about to turn one year old and, although different from his next-oldest brother at the same ages, he isn't really talking yet either and the terror hits me, hard. I think about all the years of his older brother's life, I think about every time, EVERY time we stand on line at the grocery store someone has to make a comment. "Why doesn't your little boy say hello back to me? *I* raised *my* children to be polite." Or the cashier, when she's taken away my son's treat to ring it up and he doesn't understand that it hasn't disappeared for good: "Why are you crying? What's WRONG with you? We don't allow crybabies to have anything in our store." (This has happend twice at WalMart, actually, and I refuse to go in there anymore.)
I think about how we went to the Renaissance Festival this past weekend and a jester came up to him and asked his name and of course my son just stared at him, making his little noises. And the jester joked VERY loudly about how "this child is mute" and "what kind of parents are you?" and "At least he'll be a mime." Having no way of knowing, of course (he was just trying to be funny) that my son really IS mute.
But that he understands at least some of what is said to him. And he understands that he's being insulted. And he understands that if he sets foot out our front door on any old day of the week, it's going to happen again, and again and again.
I think about the baby...not talking yet, due to turn one on June 9. What if it's the same for him? I told my husband tonight, "I need to f*cking hurry up and believe, I can't stand this anymore, I'm too afraid of the next thing God is going to hurt us with for not believing in the right way!" And he gave me that I'm scared of you right now look.
Anyway, sorry to ramble on. This is a hideous way to live sometimes, I have to tell you.
So sorry for what you and your little boy are going through. Just a quick comment though. Jesus did say that the rain falls on the righteous and the unrighteous. I think scripture would support this-Book of Job for example. Sure, when we choose to go our own way rather than God's, sometimes we open ourselves up to the consequences. But MANY times IMHO it has NOTHING to do with what we have done or not done. As I understand it, tragically, autism is on the rise and seems like the experts don't really know why. Wish you and you little guys the best, JerZ.
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