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Well I'm not seeing this persecution of members in general here where I live....I have a very large family, who are mostly Catholic, and they are just as angry as anyone else with the clergy's coverups, stonewalling and denial tactics on this issue....They do not see it as in any way relating to them personally, and they certainly feel no personal or collective guilt on the matter. They just want the church (clergy) to fess up,clean up it's act and make the changes that need to be made....If they don't then it may well sound the death knell for the church.
"It's morally wrong to equate actual physical violence and hatred against a large group of innocent people with mere public scrutiny of a small group of complicit officials," Clohessy said.
The founder of the Simon Wiesenthal Center, a human rights group which fights anti-Semitism, demanded an apology from no less than the pope himself.
"The remarks are shameful, inaccurate and a complete distortion of history," Rabbi Marvin Hier said in a statement.
How, he asked, could one compare centuries of anti-Semitism which led to "the deaths of tens of millions of innocent people to perpetrators who abuse their faith and their calling by sexually abusing children? AFP: Victims, Jewish groups slam 'shameful' remarks at Vatican
"It's morally wrong to equate actual physical violence and hatred against a large group of innocent people with mere public scrutiny of a small group of complicit officials," Clohessy said.
The founder of the Simon Wiesenthal Center, a human rights group which fights anti-Semitism, demanded an apology from no less than the pope himself.
"The remarks are shameful, inaccurate and a complete distortion of history," Rabbi Marvin Hier said in a statement.
How, he asked, could one compare centuries of anti-Semitism which led to "the deaths of tens of millions of innocent people to perpetrators who abuse their faith and their calling by sexually abusing children? AFP: Victims, Jewish groups slam 'shameful' remarks at Vatican
Again, Rabbi Hier is misinterpreting the statement -- which, I realise, is very easy to do since the point is somewhat subtle, and requires an understanding of how antisemitism works as propoganda--not to mention, careful attention to what was actually said in the speech. The letter-writer is NOT comparing "centuries of anti-Semitism" and all the horrors that have gone along with it to the current situation with the Vatican. Rather, he is drawing an analogy between a specific characteristic of antisemitism -- namely, the shifting of individual moral responsibility to "collective guilt."
Unfortunately, it appears many are jumping on this bandwagon, putting their own "spin" on and sensationalizing what was actually written in the letter, and, via a game of "Chinese whispers," putting words into the mouths of this priest.
This is utterly predictable of course, given how hostile the mainstream media is toward monotheistic religion. It is their usual modus operandi to encourage the pitting of one monotheistic group (Jews) against another (Catholics), which is why I would have advised this priest to keep the letter to himself had he asked my opinion before drafting this speech (he did not, of course!).
Last edited by DreamingSpires; 04-03-2010 at 06:17 AM..
Reason: formatting
Hmmmm....I am not denying the shameful history of Christian antisemitism, but last time I checked the history books, antisemitism was in FULL SWING long before Jesus Christ, let alone the "Catholic Church," was even born.
No, that is not correct. The Catholic church officially accused the Jews of deicide..... Killing G-d. Once that happened then the anti-semitism became state sponsored in many European countries and was accepted within the Catholic church itself.
The rise of Christianity greatly increased hatred of Jews. They became seen not merely as outsiders but as a people who rejected Jesus and crucified him - despite the fact that the Roman authorities ordered and carried out the crucifixion. By the high middle ages (11th --14th centuries), Jews were widely persecuted as barely human "Christ-killers" and "Devils." Forced to live in all-Jewish ghettos, they were accused of poisoning rivers and wells during times of disease. Some were tortured and executed for supposedly abducting and killing Christian children to drink their blood or to use to it in baking matzoh - a charge known as the "blood libel." A large number were forced to convert to Christianity to avoid death, torture, or expulsion, though many secretly practiced Judaism after their conversions. (In recent times, the Catholic church and other Christian churches have rejected these anti-Semitic falsehoods.)
No, that is not correct. The Catholic church officially accused the Jews of deicide..... Killing G-d. Once that happened then the anti-semitism became state sponsored in many European countries and was accepted within the Catholic church itself.
I guess it depends on how one defines "antisemitism."
My scholarly sources on this matter tell me that antisemitism was rife in the pre-Christian world.
No, that is not correct. The Catholic church officially accused the Jews of deicide..... Killing G-d. Once that happened then the anti-semitism became state sponsored in many European countries and was accepted within the Catholic church itself.
The rise of Christianity greatly increased hatred of Jews. They became seen not merely as outsiders but as a people who rejected Jesus and crucified him - despite the fact that the Roman authorities ordered and carried out the crucifixion. By the high middle ages (11th --14th centuries), Jews were widely persecuted as barely human "Christ-killers" and "Devils." Forced to live in all-Jewish ghettos, they were accused of poisoning rivers and wells during times of disease. Some were tortured and executed for supposedly abducting and killing Christian children to drink their blood or to use to it in baking matzoh - a charge known as the "blood libel." A large number were forced to convert to Christianity to avoid death, torture, or expulsion, though many secretly practiced Judaism after their conversions. (In recent times, the Catholic church and other Christian churches have rejected these anti-Semitic falsehoods.)
The singular claim made by Ovcatto, which I disputed, was that "the Catholic Church invented anti-semitism" (emphasis mine).
Your link does nothing to support this claim; in fact, it refutes it, since if the rise of Christianity "greatly increased" hatred of Jews, that hatred must have been there in some form BEFORE said "rise" in order for it to "increase."
Last edited by DreamingSpires; 04-03-2010 at 11:04 AM..
Reason: grammar
Dreaming, there is no comparison between what is going on with the Catholic clergy and antisemitism. I don't know why you keep insisting that there is. There is no shifting of individual moral responsibility to "collective guilt." There is no blaming of the individual Catholic for the actions of the clergy...If you feel guilt, then it's of your own making.
Dreaming, there is no comparison between what is going on with the Catholic clergy and antisemitism. I don't know why you keep insisting that there is. There is no shifting of individual moral responsibility to "collective guilt." There is no blaming of the individual Catholic for the actions of the clergy...If you feel guilt, then it's of your own making.
Just wish to add....it is only a small percentage of the Catholic clergy who are culpable for this grave moral evil; Most priests--some of them living saints who have given their lives to the poorest and most marginalised in the world--are innocent, yet the collective guilt of these heinous crimes has been shifted onto their shoulders to carry.
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