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You make the same mistake that many atheists make when discussing God. You seem to think Christian's attribute everything to God which we don't. Not everything that happens on this earth is God's will. Much happens that, that He would rather not see happen, however, He has to allow the decisions of to man play out. It is the cost of giving a creation free will. I hate the term "act of God" that is so frequently used to describe natural disasters. They are not always acts of God, but many times acts of Satan.
Ok, then what is it that evolution says? Not trying to be rhetorical here, I sincerely want to better understand what it is that evolution says if not that, we evolved from something completely different than what we are today. Every time I sincerely ask that question I get an answer like "it's all so complicated to get into right here but the scientists say its correct and everyone knows its been "proven" yada, yada, yada..." BTW what is AIG? As for putting the evidence out there for all to see, well I believe the Bible does that. I believe that God's truth has always been there for those who choose to look for it. Like I mentioned before, the Bible's prophetic accuracy is "evidence" to me of its divine inspiration. Take the 2nd or 7th chapter of the book of Daniel. Written during the Babylonian empire, it predicted the rise/fall of Babylonians, Medes/Persians, Grecian, and Roman empires.
Fair enough. Please, keep in mind that evolution is a very complicated subject and for brevity I'm going to attempt to summarize. Also, I will add that I'm not a scientist and you can get better information from more qualified individuals. With that being said, I understand evolution but I'm not the best person to go to for in depth technical perspectives. I read about it but, hey, I'm not an expert.
First, I want to define evolution to avoid any confusion about what I'm talking about. Talkorigins.com defines evolution as:
A process that results in heritable changes in a population spread over many generations.
With that definition in mind, you are correct in that we evolved from something different than we are today. But, to properly understand evolution you must keep in mind the time scales involved. Unfortunately, as humans, our brains are not wired to fully comprehend the time scales. Evolution is a process that has taken place over billions of years and countless generations. As such, you will not see a crocodile give birth to a crocoduck. The changes are small and cumulative.
Mutations in DNA occur all the time due to copy errors, radiation, genetic drift, etc. Most of the time, these mutations are harmful, sometimes benign and less often helpful. As such, natural selection will weed out the harmful mutations, ignore the benign mutations and select for the helpful mutations. For example, plants that develop a mutation that allows them to better process sunlight will survive longer than a plant that doesn't. This results in the plant that processes sunlight more efficiently having a better chance to survive and pass its genes on to the next generation.
As each generation passes, the subsequent generations will not resemble the original plant as much. As these differences pile up the changes become more recognizable over time. Each beneficial mutation exploits the niche that the plant inhabits and eventually a new species emerges. And that is why you won't see a croc give birth to a crocoduck. The croc might be an ancestor but the changes are so gradual that you won't see this happening in one generation. We can study fossil records and DNA to see how a species evolved over time. And, scientists have done exactly that to better understand evolution. Better yet, you can even review their studies and, if you are so inclined, replicate these studies.
To answer your question, AIG, Answers in Genesis, is a group that tries to discredit evolution. The information they spread is often misrepresentations of what evolution says or just flat out lies.
Okay, I've given my best effort to answer your questions honestly. Would you be so kind as to tell me how the bible proves God's existence and further explain the prophecies you spoke about? I appreciate that you have kept this debate civil and look forward to your reply.
Then there is no justice in the universe. Wonder then where we picked up that concept?
That doesn't follow...Society decides what is just, and what is not...I don't know if you read the bible, but if you do, you have to agree that there is much injustice in it....Much more than there is in society today.
DNA, genetic mutation ... are not religious matters -- if one's argument is from a religious standpoint, it has no validity.
I know, I know. I've sincerely tried to keep this debate away from evolution but it's almost impossible. Evolution is the subject that theists attack and we can't seem to get away from it. So, here we go again. But, I am trying to shift the debate away from evolution to how theists justify their belief system. I am honestly interested in that question as we have talked about evolution ad nauseam. I think it's time that theists defend their belief system versus us explaining evolution over and over.
ETA: Should we take this to a new thread? I don't want to hijack your thread. Just let me know.
Excuse me... you are incorrect. We test Him all the time... by our actions and/or inactions and, if you're not aware of it, we reap what we sow.
To believe in God is a "leap of faith" that cannot be proven. If something good happens it is said to be a miracle or act of god. If something bad happens it is man's free will that causes it or the devils hand. People pray all the time but if what they pray for happens it is god that has done it...... So if god ignores your prayer has he got a "beef with you" ????? Where is the logical reasoning behind that one?
God did it is basically a "cop out" that is used to try to reinforce the notion that a god actually exists by showing that a god does something and is not imaginary.
I'm afraid that there is NO absolute proof that a god exists except for the blind faith of a "god's" followers and this unprovable notion of "God did it".
That doesn't follow...Society decides what is just, and what is not...I don't know if you read the bible, but if you do, you have to agree that there is much injustice in it....Much more than there is in society today.
But society changes from culture to culture and from century to century. And society is not always able to hold those accountable for atrocities committed against the innocent. Where is the justice for the lifelong child rapist/murder who never gets caught? Where is the Justice for those that died at the hands of a ruthless dictator or king? Without God, there is none. They simply get away with it, and those that suffered just got the short end of the stick. There is no justice in that. For justice to truly exist, there has to be a higher authority. How can one human being truly have authority over another? Who gives them the authority to decide what is just and what isn't? What if they decide what is just yet have not the power to enforce it? How is there any justice for those that are never caught?
Like I said, if there is no God, then there truly is no justice.
[quote]=HalfNelson;13585483]But society changes from culture to culture and from century to century.[quote]
That is a cop out....Theocracies are always very harsh as I said...How is it just to whip the victim of a rape? This and many other things I would say are unjust go on today in theocracies
Quote:
And society is not always able to hold those accountable for atrocities committed against the innocent. Where is the justice for the lifelong child rapist/murder who never gets caught? Where is the Justice for those that died at the hands of a ruthless dictator or king? Without God, there is none.
What is God's justice in these situations, Wait I know they go to hell....How about the violent criminals that get caught, imprisoned, but convert and repent in prison? Do they get a "go to heaven free card"?
Quote:
They simply get away with it, and those that suffered just got the short end of the stick. There is no justice in that. For justice to truly exist, there has to be a higher authority. How can one human being truly have authority over another? Who gives them the authority to decide what is just and what isn't? What if they decide what is just yet have not the power to enforce it? How is there any justice for those that are never caught?
Quote:
I guess there isn't, neither from society or God.
Like I said, if there is no God, then there truly is no justice.
God's justice....
Any person who curseth his mother or father, must be killed. (Leviticus 20:9)
If a man cheats on his wife, or vise versa, both the man and the woman must die. (Leviticus 20:10)
If a priest's daughter is a *****, she is to be burnt at the stake. (Leviticus 21:9)
Anyone who curses or blasphemes God, should be stoned to death by the community. (Leviticus 24:14-16)
Anyone who dreams or prophesizes anything that is against God, or anyone who tries to turn you from God, is to be put to death. (Deuteronomy 13:5)
If you find out a city worships a different god, destroy the city and kill all of it's inhabitants... even the animals. (Deuteronomy 13:12-15)
If anyone, even your own family suggests worshipping another God, kill them. (Deuteronomy 13:6-10)
Well you can keep God's kind of justice...People like you scare me, because you would happily vote for a theocracy. In a theocracy it is not god that controls the people or provides justice, but the leaders of the religion....I like our system just the way it is, thank you.
Fair enough. Please, keep in mind that evolution is a very complicated subject and for brevity I'm going to attempt to summarize. Also, I will add that I'm not a scientist and you can get better information from more qualified individuals. With that being said, I understand evolution but I'm not the best person to go to for in depth technical perspectives. I read about it but, hey, I'm not an expert.
First, I want to define evolution to avoid any confusion about what I'm talking about. Talkorigins.com defines evolution as:
A process that results in heritable changes in a population spread over many generations.
With that definition in mind, you are correct in that we evolved from something different than we are today. But, to properly understand evolution you must keep in mind the time scales involved. Unfortunately, as humans, our brains are not wired to fully comprehend the time scales. Evolution is a process that has taken place over billions of years and countless generations. As such, you will not see a crocodile give birth to a crocoduck. The changes are small and cumulative.
Mutations in DNA occur all the time due to copy errors, radiation, genetic drift, etc. Most of the time, these mutations are harmful, sometimes benign and less often helpful. As such, natural selection will weed out the harmful mutations, ignore the benign mutations and select for the helpful mutations. For example, plants that develop a mutation that allows them to better process sunlight will survive longer than a plant that doesn't. This results in the plant that processes sunlight more efficiently having a better chance to survive and pass its genes on to the next generation.
As each generation passes, the subsequent generations will not resemble the original plant as much. Each beneficial mutation exploits the niche that the plant inhabits and eventually a new species emerges. As these differences pile up the changes become more recognizable over time. Eventually, you have an entirely new species. And that is why you won't see a croc give birth to a crocoduck. The croc might be an ancestor but the changes are so gradual that you won't see this happening in one generation. We can study fossil records and DNA to see how a species evolved over time. And, scientists have done exactly that to better understand evolution. Better yet, you can even review their studies and, if you are so inclined, replicate these studies.
To answer your question, AIG, Answers in Genesis, is a group that tries to discredit evolution. The information they spread is often misrepresentations of what evolution says or just flat out lies.
Okay, I've given my best effort to answer your questions honestly. Would you be so kind as to tell me how the bible proves God's existence and further explain the prophecies you spoke about? I appreciate that you have kept this debate civil and look forward to your reply.
Thank you very much for the sincerity and thoroughness of your response. I will certainly try to do the same in mine. I would like to start by stating that i cannot "prove" to you that God exists anymore than you can "prove" to me evolution, however we can both share with each other "evidence" as we each see it. I will try to keep this brief but one of the prophecies I was referring to actually comes from Daniel 8 and I quote verses 20-22 " 20 The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. 21 The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between his eyes is the first king. 22 The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power." What amazes me is that this was written a year before Babylon fell to the Medes and the Persians let alone the rise of Alexander the Great, and the fall of his empire which was split amongst his 4 generals. There are many other aspects of scripture that speak to its divine nature, and this site does a very good job of articulating those better than I can here. Is-There-Anything-Left-You-Can-Trust?
I really do love science and I'm always watching science related shows on discovery channel and Nat Geo, but I just see all the "evidence" they claim is for evolution as pointing to a common Creator. I also think that much of the fossil record points to a global catastrophic flood, that thoroughly distorted the methods we use today to determine the age of things. Understanding that the evolutionary idea rests upon the notion of billions of years, I just don't see proof for the idea that this planet has been here that long. So, with regards to the creation of all things "God did it" works well for me.
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