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You mean like people who do only do good because of a promise of an eternal reward?
A born again Christian does good because that becomes the true desire of the heart. If you sin, you really feel like crap because the Holy Spirit convicts.
You are way off. I am atheist and I don't have that negative attitude about Jesus. I do about a lot of the OT, but I think Jesus's teachings are great.
First, most of us evolutionists don't believe humans are inherently good/virtuous or bad/malicious. The premise of evolution is individual variability: individuals can range from being almost entirely good (Mother Teresa) to almost entirely evil (Hitler). The vast majority of us are a combination of 'good' and 'bad'; if we consider ourselves and others honestly we all contain some virtuous and selfish tendencies.
The concepts of 'good', 'bad', and 'sin' are entirely human concepts anyway, and largely subjective. For instance, I consider it absolutely virtuous that same-sex couples should have all the same rights as heterosexual couples, including the right to marry. Any laws that deny same-sex couples these rights are a heinous abomination. I would guess that you disagree?
So, which of us is more virtuous or 'godly' if we want to use your parlance? My point is that constructing morality is extremely complex and difficult. Scripture is only one of many, many, ways to consider morality.
Funny how that individual variability doesn't seem to exist in other animal species. Why is that exactly? I don't look at animals and see their behavior as being evil or good. It is just their natural responses and instinct. If a beloved pet suddenly attacks their owner, there is usually a logical reason behind the action. Yet mankind is the only species who is creatively cruel to its own kind. We don't just kill each other. Man invents ways to inflict torture.
The only reason you see SSM as virtuous is because you don't see homosexuality as a sin. I'm sure if it involved some other sexual activity that you felt was wrong then you wouldn't feel so great about campaigning for their equal rights.
The only reason you see SSM as virtuous is because you don't see homosexuality as a sin. I'm sure if it involved some other sexual activity that you felt was wrong then you wouldn't feel so great about campaigning for their equal rights.
Odd how god is more concerned what folk do with the bits between their thighs than actually dealing with real issues like starving kids in Africa....
There are actually real people dealing with this issue by way of donations or activist work.
Or maybe it's not. You apparently think we atheists internalize our atheism in the same way Christians internalize their religion. We don't. Well, at least I don't. I can't speak for everyone. My beef is with religion, not God. That's a distinction most of my opponents never seem to make. The unfortunate issue is that most people believe in a religious God rather than a spiritual one. Those who think the Bible is 100% true, those who deny science, those who believe their religion ought to become civil law, and more than anyone else, those who claim to be Christian but whose political views are far afield of anything Jesus had to say - they're going to get an earful from me. You know that by now to be true. You can call it "resentment" or "hatred" or whatever you wish, but practicing armchair psychology on a patient you've never met isn't very wise - if you're interested in accuracy, that is.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
The way atheists just love to rip apart the Bible, refuse to acknowledge ANYTHING positive about Christianity and speak of God and Christ in extremely negative terminology demonstrates contempt directly at God, not people's behavior.
I haven't noticed many atheists here picking on Jesus. In fact, as I said before, my biggest gripe is with Christians whose political views are far afield of anything said in the New Testament. But I can't go into that here because that would be delving too deeply into the land of politics. Unfortunately, that omission means my arguments aren't 100% complete, and that can lend to some a fair amount of confusion.
As for aiming contempt at God - well, that stands to reason, doesn't it? If worshiping a rather primitive, immoral, and perpetually angry God causes otherwise good people to do crazy and irrational things, attacking the source is more prudent than going after each individual person. Christians think atheists are out to de-convert people. In a way that's true, but not in the way you think. Atheists would be happy to leave Christians alone if they could adopt a more enlightened liberal view of God instead of this heavy-handed fundamentalist variety that constantly puts religion at odds with freedom. As such, I suppose atheists are more interested in "de-converting" people away from fundamentalism, NOT away from Christianity altogether.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
It is so extreme that I haven't met a single atheist who would admit that there is any good Christian music. If they are Christian then their music sucks and they are talentless. Doesn't matter if their singles chart high.
Well, honestly, given my tastes, any song that ranks high on the charts probably sucks - but that's just my opinion. At any rate, I'm betting that most atheists who hate Christian music simply because it's Christian are young - at least young enough for music to still define their identities. Under those conditions, it stands to reason that young atheists wouldn't like Christian music. BUT ... for most older or more mature people, music is good or bad on its own merits and not because of what the song is about. As for me, personally, I've always found many Christian songs rather beautiful; they often demonstrate the melodic sound that I tend to enjoy. Hearing them sing about God all the time is no different than listening to other bands sing about love all the time, so it doesn't bother me.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
It's like the atheist that told me that even if God was real, he would rather give God the finger and burn in hell than worship him. That's a lot of resentment towards something he claims doesn't exist. I certainly don't get that angry at Muhammad even though Muslims cause a lot of pain and violence as a result of Islam.
Do you understand why they say that, though? Have you thought about it? Most of us grew up with a specific kind of morality hammered into our brains - which is a good thing. We try to teach our kids to avoid violence, to engage in diplomacy whenever possible. Don't be a bully, don't start fights, and obey the law. We learn in history class that Hitler was evil because of the Holocaust, that Stalin was evil because of his purges and the Russian gulags, that Pol Pot is evil because of all the innocent Cambodians who died under his regime.
And then we're faced with a God that held NONE of those things as sacrosanct. Morality shouldn't suddenly change just because God is committing the act. In fact, God should be a shining example of what it means to be moral. Except he's not. God is just the opposite. Thus we are supposed to overlook horrific acts of barbarity because he's God. Instead of seeing a penultimate demonstration of morality and goodness, we see genocide, carnage, and murder. Is it any wonder then how a person seeking that penultimate morality can end up bitterly disappointed?
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
But you are not God. You don't have supreme knowledge of the universe. I find it kind of ridiculous to think that man with limited understanding and knowledge could come up with a more moral solution than God.
You're missing the point entirely here. Because God is omnipotent there is literally NO reason why he would have to resort to violence to solve a problem. None. There is NO justification for it. Hell, I could even (theoretically) excuse a human for commiting those depraved acts because a human does NOT have unlimited power and unlimited knowledge. A human can only act based on what he knows and what resources he has. God, on the other hand, can do anything.
Think about that for a moment. God can do anything. Let that point sink in. Anything. God's power and knowledge are infinite. No, don't read more of my post yet. Lean back in your chair and really think about what it means to have infinite power and the ability to use it with no consequences.
Now ... with that in mind (hopefully), the idea that the ONLY option available to God in so many Biblical stories necessitated violence and murder is patently absurd.
How would YOU have handled the incident with Elijiah and the children who insulted him? If you had unlimited power, what would you have done? Are you depraved enough that you too would have sent two bears to kill 42 little children? I doubt it ... YOU would probably have found a better solution. The mere fact that we humans CAN think of better ways to handle these situations makes a prima facie case that human morality is leagues and fathoms ahead of any morality found in the OT.
And THIS ...
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
God knows all, and He certainly knows any solution that you would devise. A creator has full right to wipe out his creation just like a robot designer is not being immoral for hitting the off button. Especially if his robot went haywire and start destroying everything!
... is precisely where the majority of our contempt comes from - this insane idea that God has this "right" to simply murder billions, trillions of people if he wishes, just because he's God. Well, if that's the case, then how do you even know if anything in the Bible is true? If God has the right to murder you, then it's fair to say that he also has the right to lie to you, as well. Right? Is that not so? For all you know, this whole "worship me and I'll give you eternal happiness" is just a lie so big that it would make Joseph Goebbels drool with envy.
The moment you begin excusing immoral behavior is the moment morality loses all meaning. That goes double for a being that is supposed to be the source of your morality. If God can act immorally if he so wishes, then nothing he says, nothing in the Bible, nothing that has been promised to you, can be trusted.
At all. Period.
Can't you see that?
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
So my question to you is if you believe man is inheritantly good and does not need God to find a righteous moral path then why are so many people are the wrong side of bullying? It is a topic that makes my heart ache. If only someone had offered to be a friend to these victims instead of joining the laughing masses.
Actually, I never said that humans are inherently good. Oh no. Humans are inherently good at survival. Most of us have learned that surviving within the boundaries of "good" are far more rewarding than survival within the boundaries of "evil." Most of what we do comes from a sense of "enlightened self interest," even when it comes to altruistic gestures. Even if you simply like the feeling you get for being nice to someone, that is still an ulterior motive centering on your own personal wants and desires.
Enlightened self-interest does NOT mean everyone is selfish, but you have to admit that only under the most egregious circumstances do people really make true sacrifices for others. No one is going to donate their favorite couch to Goodwill and then sit on the floor, for instance.
Bullying is an act that really ticks me off, so you and I have that in common. I was a big anti-bully bully in school. I took it upon myself to keep the bullies in their place - not with violence, of course, but through other means.
Yet religion is one of the leading causes of bullying - especially against gays. Even adults get in on the act if they think they can get away with being a bully because their religion allows them to. Some states have even tried to amend their anti-bullying policies to allow bullying if it is done for religious reasons. What do you think 9/11 was but an extreme example of bullying? Religious belief is perhaps the greatest divider of the human species, and divisions are the main cause of bullying. Now, I'm not saying doing away with religion would eliminate bullying ... but it would act similarly to how giving everyone contact lenses would reduce the number of kids being called "four-eyes."
Or maybe it's not. You apparently think we atheists internalize our atheism in the same way Christians internalize their religion. We don't. Well, at least I don't. I can't speak for everyone. My beef is with religion, not God. That's a distinction most of my opponents never seem to make. The unfortunate issue is that most people believe in a religious God rather than a spiritual one. Those who think the Bible is 100% true, those who deny science, those who believe their religion ought to become civil law, and more than anyone else, those who claim to be Christian but whose political views are far afield of anything Jesus had to say - they're going to get an earful from me. You know that by now to be true. You can call it "resentment" or "hatred" or whatever you wish, but practicing armchair psychology on a patient you've never met isn't very wise - if you're interested in accuracy, that is.
Depends on your definition of religion. If you study the Bible, you will see that Jesus was most disgusted by the religious elite Pharisees who were strict upholders of the law. That's not what Christianity is about.
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Originally Posted by Shirina
As for aiming contempt at God - well, that stands to reason, doesn't it? If worshiping a rather primitive, immoral, and perpetually angry God causes otherwise good people to do crazy and irrational things, attacking the source is more prudent than going after each individual person. Christians think atheists are out to de-convert people. In a way that's true, but not in the way you think. Atheists would be happy to leave Christians alone if they could adopt a more enlightened liberal view of God instead of this heavy-handed fundamentalist variety that constantly puts religion at odds with freedom. As such, I suppose atheists are more interested in "de-converting" people away from fundamentalism, NOT away from Christianity altogether.
Your terminology is quite telling. "Primitive" as if my beliefs should be shelved in the dustbins of history. Newsflash, many ppl have tried to destroy the Bible and Christianity. It thrived instead. Does this liberal view of God mean hiding our beliefs in dark corners, never daring to show it in public? Our beliefs are who we are. We can't just shut it off when we walk out the door yet atheists are aggressively working to scrub Christianity from society even going to disgusting lengths of forcing grieving families to tear down cross memorials in public.
From my perspective, the reality is that you NEED God to appear immoral, angry, sadistic because for some reason, you think that gives validity to your atheism. But in the grand scheme of things, does it even matter? Whether or not you think God is evil doesn't change the question whether God exists or not. Even if God is the biggest jerk ever, if the alternative is to burn in hell forever then you bet I am going to do whatever is necessary to please Him.
Not that that is a reality I would ever accept. There are too many beautiful good things that God gave us to enjoy for me to think He is cruel and merciless. The beauty and intimacy of sex for one thing.
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Originally Posted by Shirina
Well, honestly, given my tastes, any song that ranks high on the charts probably sucks - but that's just my opinion. At any rate, I'm betting that most atheists who hate Christian music simply because it's Christian are young - at least young enough for music to still define their identities. Under those conditions, it stands to reason that young atheists wouldn't like Christian music. BUT ... for most older or more mature people, music is good or bad on its own merits and not because of what the song is about. As for me, personally, I've always found many Christian songs rather beautiful; they often demonstrate the melodic sound that I tend to enjoy. Hearing them sing about God all the time is no different than listening to other bands sing about love all the time, so it doesn't bother me.
Great, here's a wonderfully melodic song that I'm sure you'll enjoy
But in the grand scheme of things, does it even matter? Whether or not you think God is evil doesn't change the question whether God exists or not. Even if God is the biggest jerk ever, if the alternative is to burn in hell forever then you bet I am going to do whatever is necessary to please Him.
This makes your assertion that believers are somehow beyond doing good for selfish reasons a little hollow. You are open that you would abandon your own morality for self preservation, you don't really have any room to criticise anyone else's moral decisions...
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Great, here's a wonderfully melodic song that I'm sure you'll enjoy
Ha, wouldn't be my choice. I got over the Newsboys after the third album . I was, however listening to the 77's and the Choir earlier this week... A lot of their music doesn't resonate as strongly with me now that I am not a believer, but there is no denying they had some good songs. unfortunately there a a handful of good artists who got stuck in the Christian music ghetto. It is a shame the 77's couldn't make it on Island records, or that Chagall Guevara disappeared after one album.
I am also partial to a lot of liturgical classical music, Handel's Messiah, Bach's St John's Passion both come to mind...
Funny how that individual variability doesn't seem to exist in other animal species. Why is that exactly?
This is indicative of how ignorant you are. Individual variability exists in every species that exists. In fact, domestic canines exist because individuals that behaved in ways amenable to humans were selectively bred, thus resulting in domestic breeds who exhibit behavior that is vastly different from their wild cousins (wolves and coyotes). Individual variability has also been documented in wild chimps and bears: some individuals are aggressive, while others are more pacific and social.
Where did you get so a completely ignorant notion that individual variability doesn't exist in other animal species? It exists in every species!
Funny how that individual variability doesn't seem to exist in other animal species.
Wow. Even plants were selectively bred because some individual plants had traits people wanted, and therefore the plant species evolved to be more valuable to humans. Even plants vary within a species. Animals perhaps even more so. I can say for sure that my pet cats have had a range of personalities.
If men are born into sin then they are incapable of having an accurate standard of morality apart from God. Any "good" act is usually done through the strainer of self centerness and self-pride.
A Christian by name only isn't a true Christian. If your fruits are murder, fear, stealing, and bullying then chances are you haven't been born again.
So here is your circular reasoning:
1) Morality can only come from god
2) Only god's people can tap into this morality
3) X isn't one of god's people but when he acts morally, we must discount it because X just has some sort of selfish motive since he has no morality to operate out of.
4) Y is one of god's people but acts immorally. Since Y is immoral, he's not really one of god's people, and never was one of them.
5) Because of (1) through (4) I observe that all True Christians (tm) are moral and all others are immoral, which proves that the only valid morality comes from god.
In point of fact this can be simplified:
1) Whatever I consider moral behavior is evidenced by certain people, who are True Christians, and not evidenced by other people, who are not True Christians.
Basically a True Christian is one who agrees with your morality and your theology (which you claim are god's morality and theology). If they depart from either one in any significant respect, then despite how they may conduct themselves they are immoral, bad people who do not and never have known god.
I have a counterproposal:
Thieves, liars, and murders are identified by virtue of the fact that they steal, lie and kill people. Honest, truthful, respectful people are identified by them not stealing, lying or killing people.
Where the Bible got it wrong is in saying "by their fruits you shall know them [to be Christians]". Conduct is not an indication of Christianity or apostasy, but of moral character or turpitude.
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