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And H1-B visa workers are way cheaper than american workers, even when factoring in fees. Don't try to play dumb. That is absoultuely insulting.
So on one hand..high tech industry is booming and workers here gets paid too much, on the other hand, their wages are driven low by H1B's...so which is it?
It's insulting to have to read your post..it's not even original. It's the same old rhetoric spewed by anti-immigrant proponents every time the economy gets tough.
As if the jobs the H1Bs currently filled, could be done by just ANY unemployed American.
The H1B's who are employed and sponsored directly by the big companies, aren't paid any less the Americans.
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Universities in India and China are not churning better engineers with more experience(otherwise those countries would be the ones inventing technologies rather than pirating them) they are just churning out engineers who are willing to work for much cheaper. Most of those guys are just as green as the guys that come out of colleges in the USA.
They are churning out more engineer..which is only natural given their population numbers (even though they have smaller percentage of people who pursue higher education). The ones who get into the U.S. are the top of those graduates from the top schools ...not your joe blow from the India or China equivalent of University of Phoenix... or equivalent of whatever State school. We are talking about the equivalent of MIT there. Business & economy reality in both countries makes it hard for those who don't already have money to get into a position that will allow them the freedom to create & build. That is changing, but slowly.
Those who manage to come on an H1B already have experience by working within their respective countries. They aren't green new grads. You can't get a
H1B unless you have proven & documented experience and education requirements.
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People from the USA are not entitled to these jobs because they don't allow themselves to be treated like dirt, working 80 hours a week, with people blowing up your phone on sunday asking you to stay till 10pm. And they don't have a Visa constraint that makes them a slave to their job. Those people from India or China loose that visa, and they gotta go home.
You really believe that don't you?
It's true that one's ability to stay in the country is dependent on their visas and company. But those in the industry who do work 80 hours a week do so by choice. It's not the norm at the big companies that can afford to hire H1B's.
If they allow themselves to be treated like dirt, it's their personality not a fear of loosing their jobs that is the reason. Once you are on an H1B, it's relatively easy to transfer it to work for another company. You are not a slave to it.
You do feel career limiting, because you are limited to finding a job with companies willing to sponsor, which eliminates many of the most interesting and exciting small companies/startups.
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Tech has brought a lot of good to the bay, but it is also big part of the problems there as well.
It's amazing how many people think the IT industry's poop does not stink.
Those of who work it are well aware of the issues involve. We are also aware of the reality of it.
Are there staffing companies that brings in H1B contractors, paying them lower wages? Yes. It's one the most negative things working in the industry. I worked along side many of them. Contracting companies charges a premium for their contractors, much of is NOT filtered down to the contractors themselves. Using a contractor actually caused the company more then a full time employee (even factor in benefits), but because contractors don't count toward the overall headcount, but it looks better on paper financially. They are also easier to get rid off in bad economies.
These contractors are real people with real ambitions and talents..but I guess they don't count to you because they are just nameless Indians and Chinese engineers to you?
Mean while it takes some one from the Philipeans as much as 10 years before they get their visa. But hey, when you got a slave driving fortune 500 company behind you, uncle sam's got your back!
WTF are Philipeans? You are aware that H1B's is not only applicable to just Indians & Chinese citizens? Contrary to popular belief, it's not a country specific VISA. Americans could be "loosing out" these lucrative jobs to "Philipeans" slaves too.
I don't have anything against tech or IT workers. But it annoys me how everyone in the Bay Area gushes over tech and treats it like any other industry and expects that what's good for tech is what's good for everyone else. Again, considering how much money tech makes, it doesn't employ or affect a lot of people. Don't take it from me, take it from Peter Thiel, Silicon Valley venture capitalist and a founder of PayPal. I disagree with his libertarian politics but he's right on about the limited effect of the tech industry:
And it annoys me that people will read topics like this one and the sfgate article it posts (which is about conclusions by a search engine about the local job market) and think that "oh, I can move to the Bay Area and get a job in anything." You can't unless you're already inside the tech bubble. When the economy in the Bay Area is good, then it's ridiculously easy to get a job because of how quickly money moves here. But it's not good now, it's only good in one small sector of the economy, and it ain't trickling down like it used to. Meanwhile everyone's rent is going up and up and up whether you work in tech or not.
I'm not blaming anyone but after living in the Bay Area for 8 years now I am tired of a few things here--the way everyone gushes over tech, the way people with 6 figure jobs get stuck in a bubble and think everyone here lives the same way they do, and the way that employers here refuse to train anyone and expect that they can hire a perfect pre-made robot employee, and if their employees want more money they can just quit and find a job elsewhere. I really think everyone here is stuck 10 years ago and think this tech bubble is just like the one around 1999 where the money did trickle down for better or worse. But the non-tech economy here is still chained to the rest of the US and to the global economy, and unless you're in tech you aren't making enough money to hire new people or give raises that keep up with recent rent increases.
So on one hand..high tech industry is booming and workers here gets paid too much, on the other hand, their wages are driven low by H1B's...so which is it?
Nice try but I never said high tech was booming or that their workers get paid too much. Please find where I said that.
I am talking about H1B workers, specifically.
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It's insulting to have to read your post..it's not even original. It's the same old rhetoric spewed by anti-immigrant proponents every time the economy gets tough.
Yea, I'm a real anti-immigrant even though my grandmother came here from Italy. That makes total sense. Your rhetoric is the same rhetoric used by pro immigrant proponents, everytime they try to justify short changing the local work force, when they want to bus in some more cheap workers.
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As if the jobs the H1Bs currently filled, could be done by just ANY unemployed American.
I never said they could, but they could be filled by qualified Americans, which we have plenty of
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The H1B's who are employed and sponsored directly by the big companies, aren't paid any less the Americans.
Sure they're not. LoL
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They are churning out more engineer..which is only natural given their population numbers (even though they have smaller percentage of people who pursue higher education). The ones who get into the U.S. are the top of those graduates from the top schools ...not your joe blow from the India or China equivalent of University of Phoenix... or equivalent of whatever State school. We are talking about the equivalent of MIT there
Nice try but there is no equivalent to MIT. MIT is one of the best schools in the world and India does not have a comparable university. Given that most of the US schools are ranked much higher, why is silicon valley looking out of country?
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Those who manage to come on an H1B already have experience by working within their respective countries. They aren't green new grads. You can't get a
H1B unless you have proven & documented experience and education requirements.
This is actually false. An h1b can be obtained with just a bachelors degree-less if you are say, a model. Experience in your field is not a requirement. Nice try. If you are fresh out of school and and some one wants to recruit you, they can sponsor your h1b. You do not even need a high school diploma for an h1b. Try to brush up on your immigration law there buddy.
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You really believe that don't you?
It's true that one's ability to stay in the country is dependent on their visas and company. But those in the industry who do work 80 hours a week do so by choice. It's not the norm at the big companies that can afford to hire H1B's.
If they allow themselves to be treated like dirt, it's their personality not a fear of loosing their jobs that is the reason. Once you are on an H1B, it's relatively easy to transfer it to work for another company. You are not a slave to it.
You do feel career limiting, because you are limited to finding a job with companies willing to sponsor, which eliminates many of the most interesting and exciting small companies/startups.
It's only easy if you have someone willing to sponsor you, if you can't find one, than you are out of luck. If you get fired, you are out of luck. If you get laid off and can't find work, you are out of luck.
Of course most of these people simply ignore the law and over stay their visa.
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Are there staffing companies that brings in H1B contractors, paying them lower wages? Yes. It's one the most negative things working in the industry. I worked along side many of them. Contracting companies charges a premium for their contractors, much of is NOT filtered down to the contractors themselves. Using a contractor actually caused the company more then a full time employee (even factor in benefits), but because contractors don't count toward the overall headcount, but it looks better on paper financially. They are also easier to get rid off in bad economies.
See even you admitt it. You try to act all pompus and act like these people in Silicon Valley are treating their h1b's like Americans. A lot of those people get treated like dirt. Like you said, one of the biggest negatives of the industry. But for some reason you get mad when I point that out, heh.
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These contractors are real people with real ambitions and talents..but I guess they don't count to you because they are just nameless Indians and Chinese engineers to you?
Nationality has nothing to do with it. These people do not count to me because they have been brought in by private companies at the expense of the American worker. They could be from Mars for all I care, I'm still going to be against it.
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WTF are Philipeans? You are aware that H1B's is not only applicable to just Indians & Chinese citizens? Contrary to popular belief, it's not a country specific VISA. Americans could be "loosing out" these lucrative jobs to "Philipeans" slaves too.
Don't get your panties in a bunch over me misspelling phillipians. Rather than hang onto my spelling try to think clearly. The US only allows for a certian amount of h1b's a year. It's not like anyone can just go get one. The US also has different requirements for different countries when obtaining a visa. The rules are not the same to everyone.
Of course, you also ignore the fact that a large part of India's university system is geared towards engineering programs, so they get disproportionate amout of the visas.
H1B has essentially become silicon valley corporate welfare. Political donations so long as those with power continue to support Silicon Valley's need for cheap labor.
Last edited by NorCal Dude; 02-02-2012 at 06:35 PM..
I don't have anything against tech or IT workers. But it annoys me how everyone in the Bay Area gushes over tech and treats it like any other industry and expects that what's good for tech is what's good for everyone else. Again, considering how much money tech makes, it doesn't employ or affect a lot of people.
It does not affect everyone, or even a lot of people, but it does affect people outside of tech. Money made here by those in high tech, is being spent, and it's a positive thing for the bay area that it's here instead of elsewhere.
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I disagree with his libertarian politics but he's right on about the limited effect of the tech industry:
Natural evolution of economies, from an agricultural based one, to manufacturing, to information to whatever is next. Perhaps it might go full circle, but it's about adapting to whatever the next economy. It's short sighted to expect things to just stay as they were and are...evolve, adapt. Complaining, or running away isn't going to solve anything. I am personally looking forward to some virtual robot organic heirloom corn ruling the planet.
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You can't unless you're already inside the tech bubble. When the economy in the Bay Area is good, then it's ridiculously easy to get a job because of how quickly money moves here.
What you just stated is no different then what you detest about the media. You are over simplifying and sensationalizing the high tech industry here. Even for those "in the tech bubble", it isn't always "ridiculously easy" to get a different job. You are trivializing it. Is it more difficult..down right hard & impossible for others in other industries? Hell yes..and most of us employed in high tech are well aware of this, especially those of us who have been around the boom in 1999. We also survived the 2001 crash. We don't actually LIVE in a bubble, unaware of what is going on around us.
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the way people with 6 figure jobs get stuck in a bubble and think everyone here lives the same way they do, and the way that employers here refuse to train anyone and expect that they can hire a perfect pre-made robot employee
Many who do make 6 figures jobs DO live like everyone else. Why is that so hard for some to understand. There is this stereotype of 6 figure salaries means you HAVE to eat out at fancy restaurants, buy fancy cars, have maids, assistants to wipe our rich snobby a**. I am SORRY if we are just normal people, and don't spend all our money as fast as we earned it so that it is trickling down through the economic ladder.
The traditional "training" model doesn't work with high tech ..especially what is done here in SV. It's really just difficult to explain and frankly I am tired of doing so on this board.
Yea, I'm a real anti-immigrant even though my grandmother came here from Italy.
Nice...the "I can't possible be anti-immigrant because my grandmother" was one defense.
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I never said they could, but they could be filled by qualified Americans, which we have plenty of
I suspect your definition of "qualified" is much more broad then what most employers are actually looking for and need. Sort of like when Obama says the country needs to produce more "Engineers".
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Sure they're not. LoL
OK..believe what you like. I can show you my bank statements..but then you will probably go off on how those damn foreigners are stealing/stole our high paying jobs.
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Nice try but there is no equivalent to MIT. MIT is one of the best schools in the world and India does not have a comparable university. Given that most of the US schools are ranked much higher, why is silicon valley looking out of country?
Wow..truly America-centric view. IIT is an exceptional school and way more competitive to get into it (and similar schools in all around the world). Other schools have excellent program and are renowned for research in specific areas..their top graduates are as sought after as well those from MIT.
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This is actually false. An h1b can be obtained with just a bachelors degree-less if you are say, a model. Experience in your field is not a requirement. Nice try. If you are fresh out of school and and some one wants to recruit you, they can sponsor your h1b. You do not even need a high school diploma for an h1b. Try to brush up on your immigration law there buddy.
Well given that I actually was on an H1B works in high tech in SV as a software engineer, lived through the lovely bureaucratic mess that is the U.S. immigration system...I am pretty well versed on what it involves and the reality of those who actually had to experience it. I don't claim to be an expert in it, but I damn well know it better then someone who just read about it.
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See even you admitt it. You try to act all pompus and act like these people in Silicon Valley are treating their h1b's like Americans. A lot of those people get treated like dirt. Like you said, one of the biggest negatives of the industry. But for some reason you get mad when I point that out, heh.
I never said the system is perfect, nor am I defender of it. I am the one who pointed it specific issues, which I believe should be addressed. For the record, what I described isn't universal in SV, actually it's specific to certain areas and roles in high tech.
I get annoyed when people like you like to do broad inaccurate generalization on entire industry, geographical area, and people based on only numbers. Numbers can be, and are be easily twisted to support every argument.
I believe the system is the problem and needs to be fixed. And you can't blame the companies or H1Bs for the system. It's YOUR government, fix it! You have the voting power. Do something. Run for office. Protest. It is much more effective then bitching about what everyone else doing is ruining "America" on a bulletin board.
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Don't get your panties in a bunch over me misspelling phillipians. Rather than hang onto my spelling try to think clearly. The US only allows for a certian amount of h1b's a year. It's not like anyone can just go get one. The US also has different requirements for different countries when obtaining a visa. The rules are not the same to everyone.
No need to worry about my panties, I have my granny pants on today, they are surprisingly difficult to bunch up.
There are different VISA's. Given all the same qualifications (education & experience) and sponsorship. A "phillipians" (though I am not sure why we are bringing religion into the discussion now) it is probably easier for a "phillipians" to obtain a H1B then someone from China or India. That's just from the b/w requirements of the H1B visa. The reality and difficulty of dealing with the consulates/embassy in India & China is a whole different ball game. Though I know the Swedes have it really easy.
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Of course, you also ignore the fact that a large part of India's university system is geared towards engineering programs, so they get disproportionate amout of the visas.
One can also argue that a disproportionate amount of the U.S. university system is geared toward non-engineering programs. One can also argue, given that India have a percentage of the world's population, their proportion of engineering programs should be the norm for the rest of the world to measures against.
Amazing how numbers can be used to fortified an argument .. any argument.
What annoys me is that for about the last 40 years, the wealthy have been systematically destroying and denigrating education, and then big corporate employers today cry that they can't find anyone to hire with the skills they want. Well, if they actually made an effort to work together with our education system to come up with a workable plan, then they'd find what they want. But it's a lot cheaper and easier to just steal employees from other companies or use illegal labor or visa labor than to try and reform a dysfunctional education system. This isn't anything to do with tech, it's just kind of the way the labor market in the US is now, but tech has taken it to a whole new level with their visa hires.
Welcome to the globalization. When people from outside of the USA have a slightly better chance to move up the world economical ladder then 40 years ago. Other countries faster to the new world economy...so what is the U.S. system's problem? It is only the wealthy's, corporations and the government's fault? Perhaps it's the people's as well...living off the glory of years past a bit too long? Not paying attention enough to the world around them to keep pace? When was the last time any government could keep pace with ANYTHING new (economies, technologies, etc..). Why rely on the government so much?
Have you ever considered what other countries consider the U.S's "H1B stealing American job problem" or "visa hires"? They think it's a "Brain drain" problem. The best and brightest of their country are taking their expensive (paid for by their respective government) education and experience to go and make money for Americans! There is more then one side to everything... people should really be more open to other perspective, because you never know when you will be on the other side.
I find it amusing to see the complain about tech labor market...the money it generates is not just from Americans. It's an industry that makes it far easier to make money from outside of the US ... with minimal physical presence in those countries. While bookstores here in the US complain about Amazon taking all the business..how do you think the little book stores in Canada, the U.K. or now India feels? Probably the same...except the money Amazon is making off them, is not staying in their country...it's going right to the good old America!
Have you ever considered what other countries consider the U.S's "H1B stealing American job problem" or "visa hires"? They think it's a "Brain drain" problem. The best and brightest of their country are taking their expensive (paid for by their respective government) education and experience to go and make money for Americans! There is more then one side to everything... people should really be more open to other perspective, because you never know when you will be on the other side.
The thing is, now the "brain drain" isn't working this way. The best and brightest come from abroad, learn a ton in the US and then go back home to start businesses, etc. So it causes brain drain in the US, and improves the "3rd World." In fact these people return home as high rollers and live int he best suburbs and have the best wages. It is a win win.
As long as we do not develop our own talent in the US, and come up with better immigration policies, we'll be an also ran like Italy or Greece: the land of the fallen empire. China, India and the Philippines will take over. Africa is making improvements as well. Considering over 1B people live in China and India each, it won't take long for them to take over.
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