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Yes, liberals defending an oppressive and regressive belief system like Islam is ironic and vaguely absurd. It's because they misguidedly see adherents as some kind of 'underdog'. I'm reminded of a situation several years ago in the Netherlands - the local council was accommodating a group of refugees. Well intended social workers were doing their best to help a group of the oppressed. All went swimmingly until the migrants pushed for a separate entrance for the women. What's a good liberal to do?
You know, there was a time when society found it necessary to "liberate" Native Americans from their "backward" ways, beliefs and languages, "for their own good". They simply didn't know how oppressed they were. Nowadays, people viiew them as "underdogs" for some reason. I wonder what that's about? Maybe we should do the same thing in the Near East as the Soviets did in Central Asia; "modernize", democratize, and while we're at it, tell the women they all get to have their very own personal husband, no more sharing necessary. Sounds like a good idea. Who knew the USSR was such a good role model? We could learn a few things from them, too bad the regime is over. That hasn't stopped us from using torture techniques and flaunting human rights like they did, though. Maybe we should help Putin bring it all back so they can show us how to spy on our own citizens, muzzle the news outlets, and rig elections. Somebody's gotta do something about all those crazy young people, radicals and miscellaneous "people of color" who keep insisting on voting their way.
Heck, we've got the superior firepower (except for maybe Iran, oops! Oh, and Pakistan.... ), why not just steamroll them for their own good, nuke all the mosques, and send all our Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses over there, to show the the way? Cuz we're right, and we have a far superior system, religion and democracy, so that makes it ok. Darn tootin'!
Yes, and the least of things is why the hell the apparent deference for oppressive superstitions? Again, it's a paradox that the knee-jerk liberal contingent would be offended. As you suggest, if they ain't white they're a victim. An non-bromidic glance might inform one that the 'victim' is sometimes the oppressor.
Sure, 'cause we make the laws, so we can make them leave the scarf at home, like they do in France (oh, wait--wasn't there a problem in France recently? ) and pretend to be like us. Yeah, that'll work.
Why engage in cultural relativism? The West, as flawed as it is creates (infidel technology, whether it's computers, the net, or Japanese pick ups is de rigueur in much of the Islamic world - what's the alternative?) The reason that the UK, and US and France and Denmark etc attract migrants, Muslims and others is because the West - with all its terrible flaws - is overall about as good as it gets - in terms of human rights, equity etc. Secular democracy may not be perfect, but it sure as hell beats primitive superstition.
You know, there was a time when society found it necessary to "liberate" Native Americans from their "backward" ways, beliefs and languages, "for their own good". They simply didn't know how oppressed they were. Nowadays, people viiew them as "underdogs" for some reason. I wonder what that's about? Maybe we should do the same thing in the Near East as the Soviets did in Central Asia; "modernize", democratize, and while we're at it, tell the women they all get to have their very own personal husband, no more sharing necessary. Sounds like a good idea. Who knew the USSR was such a good role model? We could learn a few things from them, too bad the regime is over. That hasn't stopped us from using torture techniques and flaunting human rights like they did, though. Maybe we should help Putin bring it all back so they can show us how to spy on our own citizens, muzzle the news outlets, and rig elections. Somebody's gotta do something about all those crazy young people, radicals and miscellaneous "people of color" who keep insisting on voting their way.
Heck, we've got the superior firepower (except for maybe Iran, oops! Oh, and Pakistan.... ), why not just steamroll them for their own good, nuke all the mosques, and send all our Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses over there, to show the the way? Cuz we're right, and we have a far superior system, religion and democracy, so that makes it ok. Darn tootin'!
you COMPLETELY missed the point... I mean that went right over your head.
(Also, you're talking about going to other people's countries and spying or forcing democracy... that's NOT what we're talking about here. We're talking about ideologies that oppress women and how it's odd in the western world how there are people that defend those ideologies....)
Sure, 'cause we make the laws, so we can make them leave the scarf at home, like they do in France (oh, wait--wasn't there a problem in France recently? ) and pretend to be like us. Yeah, that'll work.
So, you are saying that the terrorists in France had a point because people left their scarves at home? Wait, are you sympathizing with the terrorists and saying they had a point because of France's laws?
Put yourself in those women's shoes.... Imagine you grew up in a culture where you were forced to cover yourself for modesty. A mere act like showing hairline would warrant a beating from a male relative. How would you feel?
Just because others do it, doesn't mean we have to condone it here at home. What if African migrants came en masse and performed female circumcisions to all of the girls in their culture? Would you say that it's OK in the name of tolerance and multiculturalism and we shouldn't force them to stop because it's their culture too?
You know, there was a time when society found it necessary to "liberate" Native Americans from their "backward" ways, beliefs and languages, "for their own good". They simply didn't know how oppressed they were. Nowadays, people viiew them as "underdogs" for some reason. I wonder what that's about? Maybe we should do the same thing in the Near East as the Soviets did in Central Asia; "modernize", democratize, and while we're at it, tell the women they all get to have their very own personal husband, no more sharing necessary. Sounds like a good idea. Who knew the USSR was such a good role model? We could learn a few things from them, too bad the regime is over. That hasn't stopped us from using torture techniques and flaunting human rights like they did, though. Maybe we should help Putin bring it all back so they can show us how to spy on our own citizens, muzzle the news outlets, and rig elections. Somebody's gotta do something about all those crazy young people, radicals and miscellaneous "people of color" who keep insisting on voting their way.
Heck, we've got the superior firepower (except for maybe Iran, oops! Oh, and Pakistan.... ), why not just steamroll them for their own good, nuke all the mosques, and send all our Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses over there, to show the the way? Cuz we're right, and we have a far superior system, religion and democracy, so that makes it ok. Darn tootin'!
A bit of cultural self-contempt here - the Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses are idiots (indeed, they are), but more 'exotic' myths are somehow all right? Note the poignant language - 'people of color'.'Color' or race isn't the problem - cultural development is.
People also romanticize about Native American culture and how "spiritual" they were. Sure, they may have had their own religion but many of the tribes were very violent and always at war. Where does scalping come from? The Choctaws performed scalping as a trophy of their enemy. Have you heard of the Crow Creek Massacre? The Comanches (who were known to kill infants, burn enemies alive, and ride hundreds of miles just to kill), Apaches (constantly at war with the Mexican Yaqui tribe), Mohawks (who were one of the most feared tribes), to name a few... were all very violent. When the settlers from Europe came, many died at their hands. Yes, there was war between them but if it weren't for colonization, you would not be sitting in front of your computer in your cozy home in California surfing the internet, reading this message, and enjoying all the perks that modern life has to offer you.
Colonization has been happening since the dawn of history. And it's not always the evil whiteys who are colonizing others. Ever study world history? It's been happening in every civilization. All we can do is learn from it but learning doesn't take place by shaming people (like the Paris victims you shamed and blamed for the attacks), or inciting self-loathe or (white) guilt.
... you would not be sitting in front of your computer in your cozy home in California surfing the internet, reading this message, and enjoying all the perks that modern life has to offer you.
Yeah. Sounds great. Speaking of things that blindly condition humanity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkySofiaLila
Ever study world history? It's been happening in every civilization.
Yeah. How about you? And including pre-history, such as genetic and cultural anthropology, and archeological forensics? If you had, you might grasp the human condition better through understanding its foundational sciences.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkySofiaLila
All we can do is learn from it but learning doesn't take place by shaming people (like the Paris victims you shamed and blamed for the attacks), or inciting self-loathe or (white) guilt.
Um, yeah. And that includes shaming people who have been conditioned by their religions to accept self-denigrating customs.
I agree with you entirely that religion is man's greatest lie and folly. And responsible for more suffering than all other dysfunctional behaviors combined. But, do you think your attacks on religion and political ideologies are going to change the minds of true believers? Or just further entrench them antagonistically toward you?
I agree with you entirely that religion is man's greatest lie and folly. And responsible for more suffering than all other dysfunctional behaviors combined. But, do you think your attacks on religion and political ideologies are going to change the minds of true believers? Or just further entrench them antagonistically toward you?
I didn't say we should shame anyone at all. My point was I don't understand why people defend Islam and its ideologies. Education is empowering and is key to helping people - especially the disadvantaged - get out of these types of situations. So by not educating people, are you saying that people who live in poverty in the inner city should stay living in poverty because it's wrong to change their minds about looking for better living conditions? The women who are forced to cover up by their religion and by their spouses might be longing for something better - a chance at going to school, making friends, and learning about the world around them and having a more freedom. Why couldn't we encourage this? We shouldn't be encouraging people to embrace these ideologies of oppression and suffering by ignoring a problem and looking away.
As far as "further entrench them antagonistically towards you"... so you think that we should sit back and do nothing when attacks like the one in Paris or Belgium happen? What about when violence is committed against women here in our country and the excuse is that it is part of the religion? There are organizations that rescue FLDS women and girls who have been married to the same man. If they were to do that here to muslims, someone would be crying "racism" (even though Islam isn't a race). This is happening right under our noses in the US among immigrant communities - particularly religious ones - and the problem is not addressed. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/14/op...blem.html?_r=0 Why not? Is it because it would "further entrench antagonistic feelings?" Or is it because someone would cry profiling? Why should we be tolerant of behaviors we find completely abhorrent? Is this acceptable? Child bride, 13, dies of internal injuries four days after arranged marriage in Yemen | Daily Mail Online and Yemeni child bride, 8, dies of internal injuries on first night of forced marriage to groom, 40 | Daily Mail Online It is only a matter of time where if we ignore the plight of those people suffering - even something as seemingly innocent as a head scarf to hide a shameful hairline or face - the situation will get worse and worse and we'll be seeing more and more people suffering under oppressive rules. Educating people is a way of helping them open their eyes.
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I wonder what that's about? Maybe we should do the same thing in the Near East as the Soviets did in Central Asia; "modernize", democratize, and while we're at it, tell the women they all get to have their very own personal husband, no more sharing necessary. Sounds like a good idea. Who knew the USSR was such a good role model? We could learn a few things from them, too bad the regime is over. That hasn't stopped us from using torture techniques and flaunting human rights like they did, though. 
