Sand Gnats leaving Savannah for Columbia, S.C. (Palmetto, Greensboro: how much, home)

[SavannahLife]

Yep, It's more like a picnic with occasional entertainment vs constant sport watching like a SMN commentor said!

[garnetpalmetto]

Originally Posted by SavannahLife

Dark, True. Well, just give it an update instead of building a whole new stadium. Plus now what will we use the stadium for? Council will probably concoct some crazy idea, waste money on it, then end up letting it sit there doing nothing.

The problem is, with all the upgrades that would need to be done to bring it up to the minimum standards set by Minor League Baseball, you're going to be spending money to the point where you might as well just build a new stadium, pretty much.

[SavannahLife]

Not sure it needs a hundred million in upgrades to improve concessions and seating. As to the field quirks that is our quaint charm. Hah.

[WanderingImport]

Originally Posted by garnetpalmetto

The problem is, with all the upgrades that would need to be done to bring it up to the minimum standards set by Minor League Baseball, you're going to be spending money to the point where you might as well just build a new stadium, pretty much.

Agreed.

It just makes more economical sense to build a modern, up to code stadium than to keep throwing money into a structure that will always need maintenance. Money talks.

That said, Grayson is a historic stadium and should never (WILL never) be torn down. It can and will be utlized for other things.

[garnetpalmetto]

Originally Posted by SavannahLife

Not sure it needs a hundred million in upgrades to improve concessions and seating. As to the field quirks that is our quaint charm. Hah.

It's more than concessions and seating You're only factoring in what the fan experiences. For the staff/players there's plenty more. You're talking adding a devoted front office space to get the front office staff out of a converted construction trailer, electrical upgrades, probably new lighting, a complete remodel/renovation of the clubhouse/locker room spaces. Probably some plumbing/drainage work. I'm not sure when the last time the playing surface was done, but possibly that, as well, and based on complaints from the Mets probably restructuring the fences to make it less of a pitcher's park. It adds up and a renovation on the cheap is just a band-aid. Again, Columbia discovered that. Rather than build a new park in the early '90s, they just did a $1.5M renovation on Capital City Stadium which sufficed for about 10 years before the problems began to show through again.

As for the hundred million cost you raise, not that much for a Low-A park. The 5 newest parks in the South Atlantic League are:

Spirit Communications Park (Columbia, SC, opens 2016) - $40M
Fluor Field (Greenville, SC, opened 2006) - $17.5M
NewBridge Bank Ballpark (Greensboro, NC, opened 2005) - $26M
Appalachian Power Park (Charleston, WV, opened 2005) - $27.8M
State Mutural Stadium (Rome, GA, opened 2003) - $24.4M

Note that I was unable to find a cost for the new Augusta Greenjackets park which is also slated to open next year in North Augusta, SC, so I did not include that.

[912]

Here's the issue. Sand Gnat's games never sold out. NEVER! There is absolutely no financial incentive for the taxpayers to foot the bill for a new baseball stadium when the ROI is unknown, or takes decades to be realized. Plus, Savannah simply is not a sports town. We don't support any local minor league teams that have come through here (baseball, hockey, basketball, etc). That's not what we are about. We'd rather watch the Dawgs play on Saturday at a bar with an adult beverage in hand, or be in Athens. That's about as athletic as we get around here.

[garnetpalmetto]

Originally Posted by 912

Here's the issue. Sand Gnat's games never sold out. NEVER! There is absolutely no financial incentive for the taxpayers to foot the bill for a new baseball stadium when the ROI is unknown, or takes decades to be realized. Plus, Savannah simply is not a sports town. We don't support any local minor league teams that have come through here (baseball, hockey, basketball, etc). That's not what we are about. We'd rather watch the Dawgs play on Saturday at a bar with an adult beverage in hand, or be in Athens. That's about as athletic as we get around here.

Just in terms of longevity, I'd say y'all supported baseball pretty well considering the last time Grayson went without a team was 1967. That's nearly 50 years of continuous baseball and the Cardinals/Sand Gnats franchise has been there since 1984, so a little over 30 years with one team. Those are both fairly impressive.

As far as attendance goes, a team doesn't need to sell out every night to have solid fan support. The team where I live now, the Durham Bulls, is a Triple-A club which has seen lots of great prospects, makes the playoffs almost every year, and has won two league championships in the last decade. They still don't sell out regularly, but that's OK. You don't need a sell-out you need consistency, and Savannah's had that. I can give you attendance going back as far as 1991 - from 1991 until 2004 I'm unable to give an exact average for most years since I'm not sure how many home games were played each season (eg I can't account for rainouts that weren't made up for, so I can only assume a full 70 home games for those years but for 1999 when I do have the number of home games played) but here's how attendance has looked in those years and where the Sand Gnats fell in the Sally League in terms of attendance:

2014 - 2,067 (12th out of 14 teams)
2013 - 2,027 (12th out of 14 teams)
2012 - 1,863 (13th out of 14 teams)
2011 - 1,963 (13th out of 14 teams)
2010 - 1,825 (14th out of 14 teams)
2009 - 1,732 (16th out of 16 teams)
2008 - 1,625 (15th out of 16 teams)
2007 - 1,555 (15th out of 16 teams)
2006 - 1,302 (15th out of 16 teams)
2005 - 1,207 (15th out of 16 teams)
2004 - 1,619 (13th out of 16 teams)
2003 - 1,478 (11th out of 16 teams)
2002 - 1,703 (9th out of 16 teams)
2001 - 1,447 (14th out of 16 teams)
2000 - 1,934 (6th out of 14 teams)
1999 - 1,977 (8th out of 14 teams)
1998 - 1,864 (8th out of 14 teams)
1997 - 1,796 (9th out of 14 teams)
1996 - 1,750 (7th out of 14 teams)
1995 - 1,626 (9th out of 14 teams)
1994 - 1,588 (9th out of 14 teams)
1993 - 1,518 (9th out of 14 teams)
1992 - 1,136 (11th out of 14 teams)
1991 - 1,420 (7th out of 14 teams)

So seldom the worst, never the best, but never below 1,000 fans/game. That's fairly solid, especially at the Low-A level and especially in some of the years when you had teams like Gastonia, Cape Fear, and South Georgia drawing under 500 fans/night.

[CoastalGAGuy]

Originally Posted by 912

Here's the issue. Sand Gnat's games never sold out. NEVER! There is absolutely no financial incentive for the taxpayers to foot the bill for a new baseball stadium when the ROI is unknown, or takes decades to be realized. Plus, Savannah simply is not a sports town. We don't support any local minor league teams that have come through here (baseball, hockey, basketball, etc). That's not what we are about. We'd rather watch the Dawgs play on Saturday at a bar with an adult beverage in hand, or be in Athens. That's about as athletic as we get around here.

Gotta agree 100% here. With no long-standing pro team allegiances, this place is pretty much dead in the water sports-wise. The biggest crowds at Grayson were Thirsty Thursdays - when beer was cheap, and only about 1/3 of the crowd were even watching the game most of the time.

The city's money would be better spent in razing the rat trap of a Civic Center and building a proper indoor arena that can play host to numerous kinds of multi-cultural events and concerts.

[SavannahLife]

garnetpalmetto this is not Columbia and the Gamecocks. Which are probably more popular than Jesus in Cola. Numbers most here care about is waste of millions. Things like public safety are or should be higher up. Say we get a new fancy stadium will people even be able to afford it? No more dollar nights and concession discount nights. Tickets will be more expensive for what, a better jumbotron?

Coastal I've about it and you are right Civic Center sure is a rat trap. A lot of it though I have to wonder is was it maintained and why is it so dirty always. It's so cool to skate there in winter and they have good events there. Sure the acoustics are not the best. But I wonder, how is in a city where many buildings have stood centuries, that a major civic Center building falls apart after a few decades. Was it built poorly or maintained poorly or both. Will the City know how to run the Arena and keep it nice? My cynical side wonders. I guess we'll see.

[bellhead]

What we really need is a 20k outdoor amphitheater downtown on the waterfront just east of the hotels. Savannah would become a concert destination as the weather would allow the facility to hold events 9 months of the year. It also fits our population a lot better than a baseball stadium as baseball requires a larger population to support it. You do this and add in a bunch of urban 3 and 4 story mixed office/condo/apartment/first floor retail space on the empty land and people will come. There is a lack of available units in that area.

The whole crux of the sand nats goes back to the Dayton Dragons when they built their new stadium and started drawing 10k a game and are sold out for everyone of them. The team went from being valued in the millions to being sold for $40 million. Every owner sees how they did it. New stadium in the CBD, plenty of eats, seats close to the action, and marketing.