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I am not from Seattle. I have lived here 3 years and now moving back East. Here is why:
The good
1. The setting. Stellar views from mountains to oceans.
2. Outdoors. Lots to do if you are an outdoor or fishing enthusiast.
3. Some urban areas are well developed. They are great if you don't travel far, ride a bike and/or walk to work.
The not so good
1. Politics - Both Left and Right are mad. There is no middle ground. The Right seem to be focused only on religion, gun control, and zero taxes. The Left would see the state turned into to a socialist paradise. Neither side seems to have a clue what they are doing. Watching TV ads during the local and state elections, you get a sense of how bad it is. The Left leads with how well they did for special interests. The Right leads with freedoms and 2nd amendment. Absolutely nothing for middle class, nothing on roads, nothing about tax reform, nothing for small business support...nothing.
2. Taxes/charges - This likely should be the number one concern. This state is clearly on course for a California style debt implosion. The incompetence of the state and county officials to craft any form of long-term plan or focus on proper needed program funding (like roads) is appalling. 100% attention based on news stories is on the homeless epidemic and what new tax government can craft. In the past 2 years alone: Transit (see item 3), soda tax, school/levy's as recent as this past week are coming in at 17-25% for the new year. They are even experimenting with a mileage tax system. (experimental stage) The irony is that most of these taxes won't impact the rich. They will kill the struggling family who drink Mountain Dew and drive 3 hours daily to work at a major retail chain in downtown Seattle for $15/hr.
3. Road system - City/County governments crowning achievement in 2016 was a white elephant light rail that will take half my lifetime to complete. All this while there are more immediate need for roads and buses to massive out of downtown subdivisions that are 2 lane access. A good example of a neglected hwy is 18 between Auburn and Snoqualmie. It's a joke. It should clearly be 4 lanes all the way to i95. However, it merges to 2 lanes 2 times and the onramp from i95 starts with a 1 lane squeeze is simply bad. Hwy. 5 is a parking lot 7x24. The toll system for the first year was a complete mess and the changes from car pool lane, to toll lane, to regular hwy during a drive from Tacoma to Everett are ridiculous. Lane shifting is brutal. As a result of this white elephant light transit program, plate tags and toll lane charges have gone through the roof. Most of which was not explained to the tax payer during the promotional campaign.
4. Weather - Not much to say here. The past 2 years saw stellar summers followed by 6 months of cloud and rain. There was virtually no sun during the entire winter.
5. Housing - There is definitely a housing bubble shaping up. I don't think the city managers have a clue how to deal with it. Houses are being built. But, the infrastructure and mass transit starting with roads getting there is non-existent as mentioned under roads. People cannot move. There is a wide swing in quality education causing people to jam into select areas which also drives up pricing.
6. Businesses - The is absolutely the worst city I have lived to do business with. Virtually every business I have dealt with has been incompetent or a scammer. There is zero customer service. This extends to government officials,home repair trades, to car dealerships who have email addresses and phone numbers but never reply. The malls and attractions are garbage.
7. Things to do - If you don't fish, ski, hike...you are screwed. This city has nothing. The city tries to promote the arts. But, funding seems to be reserved for the 12,000 ads a night you see for a musical in downtown. Kids have nothing to do. Kids get in trouble here because there is little in the way of good baseball diamonds, soccer fields, science centers... interesting events ...nothing that you would see in major metro areas. What little there is, is reserved for downtown Seattle or Bellevue residents which is a significant drive for most. The lack of suburbia funding is indicative of most major Left leaning cities which focus only on special interest funding.
8. The people - While I have met some fantastic individuals, you need to spend a few days walking in malls, going to restaurants and any other place people interact and you will see what I mean here. Seattle people do not like to interact. Look at the number of people that stare at the ground. Try to say "good morning" or "hello" and see what you get. The Seattle "freeze" is real. I have seen retail clerks ask someone "how there day is?" and the response is "why are you asking?" Indifference, negative, cold, are words that come to mind when describing many encounters. What is interesting is when you cross the mountains to Spokane, the tone is somewhat different and a little more warm.
9. Crime - Petty crime in the area I live(d) seems to have increased substantially from nothing to weekly events or reports of drug induced nut-bars running around. Like many cities, there is a struggle with a drug epidemic in many of areas. I am not getting into correlating legalization of weed to crime because I am not buying the claims that legalization is the underlying cause of criminal activity. I still maintain it's related to sound government, job creation and standard of living.
Conclusion
Seattle is broken. You have the originals that have been here through all the lumber and mining layoffs that are struggling to get by. There is little effort by government or business to train or improve the lives of these folks. Big businesses seem more inclined to import labor than crafting relationships with schools. On the other side, you have the extremely wealthy, high tech people (most from out of state or country) that are driving up home pricing and changing the city. (look up gentrification) Both are rude and ignorant of the plight or lives of each other. It is like oil and water and there is no middle ground. Nothing gets done correctly because you have polar opposites politically, socially, and the very taxes and wage controls that Seattle is imposing is driving up cost to serve. It's a vicious circle.
The people that do seem to enjoy living in Seattle are young, have very young/no kids, and high tech. ($$) They live in urban areas and enjoy the outdoors. That's all I can say..
Agreed, but many of the Seattle cheerleaders will tell you you’re wrong, your opinion of the weather is “wrong,” and a housing bubble can’t happen again...even though it’s happened many times in the past
I found myself agreeing with many things mentioned, but the blanket generalizations went a little too far in some cases in my opinion.
For example, people. I find people in Seattle to be friendlier than you have, and I'm a big dude many folks are usually afraid of.
You're spot on with the infrastructure. But hey, homeless people will have free places to live though. Yay?
It feels to me like Seattle is losing it's identity, it's soul to sound cheesy. There used to be this defining feel about Seattle, some of it gritty and grungy, yet still modern and high techie. Yeah, I get it, things change and cities have to evolve to keep up, but it just feels to me like we're selling out to the highest bidder.
Take the excitement around the possibility of the new NHL team that is going to come to Seattle. The guys running the show aren't from Seattle, don't live in Seattle, and have no history in Seattle. There are coming to town to make money off Seattle. Sure, fans have another professional sports team to watch so they'll get something from the deal, but these guys don't care about the city of Seattle beyond how much money it can make them. This new Key Arena is a crown jewel for them to make money and advance their interests outside of Seattle.
Heck, maybe I am just overreacting. That's possible.
Everyone deserves their happy place OP. Too bad this wasn't yours, but now you know all the things to look for in the next attempt! When you find that spot with perfect weather, cheap housing, incredible access to alpine wilderness, wise-beyond-reckoning local politicians, a wonderful job market with lots of well-paying jobs, no divide between rich and poor, low taxes, wide and empty roads (don't forget well-maintained), and outgoing people with no agenda - come back and let us all know!
I am not from Seattle. I have lived here 3 years and now moving back East. Here is why:
The not so good
2. Taxes/charges - This likely should be the number one concern. This state is clearly on course for a California style debt implosion. The incompetence of the state and county officials to craft any form of long-term plan or focus on proper needed program funding (like roads) is appalling. 100% attention based on news stories is on the homeless epidemic and what new tax government can craft. In the past 2 years alone: Transit (see item 3), soda tax, school/levy's as recent as this past week are coming in at 17-25% for the new year. They are even experimenting with a mileage tax system. (experimental stage) The irony is that most of these taxes won't impact the rich. They will kill the struggling family who drink Mountain Dew and drive 3 hours daily to work at a major retail chain in downtown Seattle for $15/hr.
We don't need any "taxes" to solve no. 2, round them up into mandatory State mental incarceration, prisons, and/or work camps depending on nature of offense to vagrancy laws. Triple the size of minimum security prisons and tent cities mid-state. The State has enough money already! Reprobates receive due process, trials, and after several cycles are placed into national detention centers and work projects, WPA style. That's my opinion, broad-strokes. Very do-able, for the good of society, if the emergency is severe enough. "I think" that will take awhile for people to figure out, state and nation-wide.
Rest of it seems true enough, negatives and positves. Weather is what it is, some winters are harsh and others mild. Some can deal with it, others not. I don't like it much and tend to embrace the sun (like the last few days), despite the cold.
I don't give a ___t about "interacting" with anyone, nor do many people who thrive here. Nerds are what we are. If you do, have a swell day somewhere else like Mexico City or wherever. The Freeze has some real components to it, for sure. Those few times I want to interact, my point is made tersely enough. Likewise others, with me. Fine. How about...mind your own business, I'll do the same, chief?
Dunno about crime, I don't live in some ghetto part of town or elsewhere where they refuse to enforce laws. Kirkland cops take care of that crap right-quick I notice. Good for them. If they didn't, I'd deploy *non-lethal*, non-harmful (long-term) self defense immediately anyway, solving the problem. The police are not responsible for my safety, I am!
Nothing broken here I can see, though it's changed from the inside-out past twenty years, and thank God for it for the most part. I've watched it with absolute joy since, and even during, the Great Recession. I figured by 2010 what was going to happen, that we'd recover just fine, and sure enough.... So: Adios, if you're not happy here, frankly. Clear out the bums and drug/bum camps, it will be close to ideal, which may or may not happen given the sick nature of city government. I don't live there, Eastside has an entirely different policy which works just fine.
Long live Seattle! I live in suburbia, not young but feel like I'm about 30 (and act like it) ...really 50 though...and enjoy both being an indoor mole and (sometimes) and outdoor enthusiast. Greatest place in the US I've seen *all* things considered, though Los Gatos (Silicon Valley) and parts of San Diego are close contenders.
Bytown, I hope you find a place that you like better. I know people who come here and dislike it. I know others who fall in love with it and never leave. Our family is in the latter camp and we have many reasons why. No point in going over those again though. Best of luck to you.
Your sentiments echo those of many others who have left/are planning on leaving (or want to leave). In response to you points..
1 - Politics are a mess throughout the country, and I don't think what you state is necessarily exclusive to Seattle. Seattle itself does tend to lean very left on most matters.
2 - WA is considered to be one of the most regressive tax states in the country. As the state grows (especially in the greater Seattle metro), and demand for services grows (i.e - ST3) there have been lots of sales/property tax increases, business taxes, big increases in car tabs, etc. This is likely the result of two factors - tax money not being utilized as efficiently as possible (look at some of the administrative costs for programs being funded by the new Seattle soda tax), as well as no state income tax to source funds from (as much as that comment may rustle some feathers here), increasing reliance on other tax sources.
3 - Roads/infrastructure issues are only going to continue getting worse for now, unfortunately. Region-wide light rail service won't be available for awhile, and an aging highway system will struggle to handle even more cars on the road from additional people moving here in the coming years - and geography issues make it difficult to expand the freeways. People who don't have the means to live close-in (whether that means a high income/reserve of wealth, or downsizing & giving up amenities) are gonna be pretty SOL from a commuting standpoint for years to come.
4 - Weather is subjective. But this Seattle native is finally getting tired of the winters here, so I know how you feel. At least it's not like Midwest winters.
5 - It remains to be seen if a bubble is at play. Lots of new apartments are being built for rentals in Seattle (and even in other cities) for the upper end of the market, but not much is being added to the real estate/to own market. Geography and zoning laws, among other factors, make adding supply a bit harder here than a city with lots of flat land. A correction will come eventually, but I think expensive is the new normal here.
6 - Sorry to hear of your bad experience with businesses here. My experiences have generally been good, with few exceptions.
7 - The nature activities are obviously abundant here. As far as entertainment options/nightlife/cultural amenities are concerned, Seattle simply isn't in the same league as cities like NY, LA, Chicago, or even SF, Boston, Philly, etc. But it's still decent for a city of it's size - although yes, there isn't much going on in the suburbs (but that could be said of many metros). The only thing I might feel differently about here is the parks/baseball diamonds and such - Seattle is a pretty good place for that, I think.
8 - The Freeze is indeed real, which makes you appreciate the friendly folks that you do come across here that much more. I think you put it best with the "people do not like to interact" comment. That's the vibe I get while I'm out and about. In every other major city I've visited, it hasn't been like this - I seem to get more smiles, hellos, and conversations - even in cities deemed by popular opinion to be not so friendly. People like to stick to their social circles here, and are slow to allow newcomers in.
9 - There has definitely been an uptick in crime in recent years, unfortunately. The violent crime rates are still really low for a city of Seattle's size, but the property crime rates, which were already high, are getting quite bad in some areas.
Overall, I agree with you, and am looking into the possibility of leaving later this year myself. Best of luck to you in your move back east.
I just got back from a trip to Portland. After spending a few days in Portland, celebrating my mother's birthday and visiting with my family, I have to say I had a blast of a time. Portland really is thriving, the city is full of life, there is people smiling (not as much as other places, but I saw smiles), friendliness, hipness and just all around upbeat vibe. I realized after visiting Portland how much Seattle sucks.
I'm happy to be leaving the Puget Sound for good. The area is beautiful and I would love to come back to the Puget Sound and the Olympic and Northern and Central Cascade mountain range in the Summer for some hiking. However, living here just sucks and you can see it more and more on the faces of the people who are living and moving to Seattle how much people are not happy living there anymore. Nobody can afford to live there and people spend their lives working themselves to death to enjoy a lifestyle that was not even half as good as where they may have came form.
I think I will enjoy living in Portland for the next year until I can figure out my final destination. I know I cannot be in Portland, forever. But, I hope to enjoy the next year living where I grew up, in the state of Oregon and Willamette Valley. Don't get me wrong, Portland is plagued by many of the issues that most ultra liberal cities are plagued with. The homeless are out of control and in some ways its worse than Seattle that they set up tents on the corners of sidewalks. Although, Portland has always been a town of homeless (including me a long time ago). So, for some weird reason it is almost like the homeless camps moved from the Burnside Bridge and are now distributed throughout the city. One thing I have noticed is the area around downtown, the newly gentrified Pearl District and even most of Burnside have become much more desirable places to live. Portland use to have so much crime, grit and broken and run down neighborhoods that even with the homeless issue, the city seems to be safer and nicer than it use to be back in the 90s and early 00s. Still, all liberal cities have their problems and I don't think I could live in Portland area for the long term. In fact, I will probably be moving to Vancouver area on the Washington side so I can still save on the state tax. The rents in Vancouver are cheaper than Seattle and Vancouver is starting to become a very desirable suburban area and even is having a gentrification process of its own in the downtown area.
The only thing I disagree with in the OP's post is that the Right focuses on gun control. You have that very wrong. It is the exact opposite. The Left focuses on gun control and it is the top of their agenda next to raises taxes to oblivion. It is the Right that focus on 2nd Amendment freedoms and opposes gun control.
I am a Libertarian and support many causes on both the right and the left, although I am more right-leaning on many issues. However, depending on where in the country I am, people will probably view me as Center-RIght, some may view me even as Center-Left. In Seattle, many view me as Radical Right-wing, but not quite Ultra Alt-Right Wing; although, most Seattle people could care less what you are if you are not ultra radical left-wing. To them anyone who does not accept all their views and beliefs is the enemy and will be condemned by the PC police.
Last edited by RotseCherut; 02-18-2018 at 11:53 PM..
I am not from Seattle. I have lived here 3 years and now moving back East. Here is why:
The good
1. The setting. Stellar views from mountains to oceans.
2. Outdoors. Lots to do if you are an outdoor or fishing enthusiast.
3. Some urban areas are well developed. They are great if you don't travel far, ride a bike and/or walk to work.
The not so good
1. Politics - Both Left and Right are mad. There is no middle ground. The Right seem to be focused only on religion, gun control, and zero taxes. The Left would see the state turned into to a socialist paradise. Neither side seems to have a clue what they are doing. Watching TV ads during the local and state elections, you get a sense of how bad it is. The Left leads with how well they did for special interests. The Right leads with freedoms and 2nd amendment. Absolutely nothing for middle class, nothing on roads, nothing about tax reform, nothing for small business support...nothing.
2. Taxes/charges - This likely should be the number one concern. This state is clearly on course for a California style debt implosion. The incompetence of the state and county officials to craft any form of long-term plan or focus on proper needed program funding (like roads) is appalling. 100% attention based on news stories is on the homeless epidemic and what new tax government can craft. In the past 2 years alone: Transit (see item 3), soda tax, school/levy's as recent as this past week are coming in at 17-25% for the new year. They are even experimenting with a mileage tax system. (experimental stage) The irony is that most of these taxes won't impact the rich. They will kill the struggling family who drink Mountain Dew and drive 3 hours daily to work at a major retail chain in downtown Seattle for $15/hr.
3. Road system - City/County governments crowning achievement in 2016 was a white elephant light rail that will take half my lifetime to complete. All this while there are more immediate need for roads and buses to massive out of downtown subdivisions that are 2 lane access. A good example of a neglected hwy is 18 between Auburn and Snoqualmie. It's a joke. It should clearly be 4 lanes all the way to i95. However, it merges to 2 lanes 2 times and the onramp from i95 starts with a 1 lane squeeze is simply bad. Hwy. 5 is a parking lot 7x24. The toll system for the first year was a complete mess and the changes from car pool lane, to toll lane, to regular hwy during a drive from Tacoma to Everett are ridiculous. Lane shifting is brutal. As a result of this white elephant light transit program, plate tags and toll lane charges have gone through the roof. Most of which was not explained to the tax payer during the promotional campaign.
4. Weather - Not much to say here. The past 2 years saw stellar summers followed by 6 months of cloud and rain. There was virtually no sun during the entire winter.
5. Housing - There is definitely a housing bubble shaping up. I don't think the city managers have a clue how to deal with it. Houses are being built. But, the infrastructure and mass transit starting with roads getting there is non-existent as mentioned under roads. People cannot move. There is a wide swing in quality education causing people to jam into select areas which also drives up pricing.
6. Businesses - The is absolutely the worst city I have lived to do business with. Virtually every business I have dealt with has been incompetent or a scammer. There is zero customer service. This extends to government officials,home repair trades, to car dealerships who have email addresses and phone numbers but never reply. The malls and attractions are garbage.
7. Things to do - If you don't fish, ski, hike...you are screwed. This city has nothing. The city tries to promote the arts. But, funding seems to be reserved for the 12,000 ads a night you see for a musical in downtown. Kids have nothing to do. Kids get in trouble here because there is little in the way of good baseball diamonds, soccer fields, science centers... interesting events ...nothing that you would see in major metro areas. What little there is, is reserved for downtown Seattle or Bellevue residents which is a significant drive for most. The lack of suburbia funding is indicative of most major Left leaning cities which focus only on special interest funding.
8. The people - While I have met some fantastic individuals, you need to spend a few days walking in malls, going to restaurants and any other place people interact and you will see what I mean here. Seattle people do not like to interact. Look at the number of people that stare at the ground. Try to say "good morning" or "hello" and see what you get. The Seattle "freeze" is real. I have seen retail clerks ask someone "how there day is?" and the response is "why are you asking?" Indifference, negative, cold, are words that come to mind when describing many encounters. What is interesting is when you cross the mountains to Spokane, the tone is somewhat different and a little more warm.
9. Crime - Petty crime in the area I live(d) seems to have increased substantially from nothing to weekly events or reports of drug induced nut-bars running around. Like many cities, there is a struggle with a drug epidemic in many of areas. I am not getting into correlating legalization of weed to crime because I am not buying the claims that legalization is the underlying cause of criminal activity. I still maintain it's related to sound government, job creation and standard of living.
Conclusion
Seattle is broken. You have the originals that have been here through all the lumber and mining layoffs that are struggling to get by. There is little effort by government or business to train or improve the lives of these folks. Big businesses seem more inclined to import labor than crafting relationships with schools. On the other side, you have the extremely wealthy, high tech people (most from out of state or country) that are driving up home pricing and changing the city. (look up gentrification) Both are rude and ignorant of the plight or lives of each other. It is like oil and water and there is no middle ground. Nothing gets done correctly because you have polar opposites politically, socially, and the very taxes and wage controls that Seattle is imposing is driving up cost to serve. It's a vicious circle.
The people that do seem to enjoy living in Seattle are young, have very young/no kids, and high tech. ($$) They live in urban areas and enjoy the outdoors. That's all I can say..
I agree with much of your post. I will say you can go to eastside and there goes your crime concerns. Also, I don't see the California style implosion of the state as you have forecasted, everything I see seems to contradict that conclusion but I would agree that if the state lawmakers start acting like Seattle, then yes.
About the Seattle Freeze, yeah I think it's real. It never bothered me that much but it's starting to a bit. I'm probably somewhat guilty myself.
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