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And I know most folks here say "do as you like"... while at the same time giving reasons it's impossible, impractical, or too hard. But as I said, it's not impossible because it's about 99.9% of human history. We wouldn't be here today if it were impossible. And please note, I'm saying it's POSSIBLE, not that it's easy and cushy like we are all used to these days. Grrrrrr.
Didn't you ask for discussion in your initial post and hasn't the conversation been civil if perhaps not wholly to your liking or in support of your point of view? Inquiring minds want to know.
Seems that if you ask for talk about lifestyle and viability, you'll get opinions and relation of experiences that may and then again may not reinforce your theories, views and assumptions. My own grandmother lived in a sod covered dirt dugout in the side of a hill on the homestead in western Kansas. When it rained, snakes slithered out of the walls. She lived there from an infant to age 9 with at least six other siblings indicating that plenty of things are possible. My mother didn't have indoor bathroom for a number of years as a youth. I used the outhouse as often as not due to limited facilities growing up.
We did pioneery things like heat with wood that we cut, split and stacked, preserved huge garden harvests until 2 am after those same gardens were weeded and hoed by hand in the blazing sun only to do it again in a few days, cleaned henhouses getting covered with dried poo and bedbugs and later in the week culling the non-layers in the big chicken kills for the freezer and stew pot. Ditto for the cattle round ups on horseback, barn muckings, pasture burnings, shatter-cane cutting by hand out of the sorghum field, raking up several acres of dropped fruit, nuts, tomatoes and cucumbers rotted after a hard freeze, clearing snakes out of the well and occasionally out of the house, inspecting the livestock and pets for blowfly maggots. Dirty, hot, hard and often disgusting work that doesn't wait for good weather. I'm grateful to have experienced that but in my old age it doesn't interest me as a voluntary lifestyle.
You asked.
Yes, and I'm simply rebutting and offering my point of view as are we all. I'm discussing as well. I'm reading the replies, processing them, deciding how I feel about them... and writing. I do appreciate the responses (all except the ones which analyze my psychology on the matter... which of course can't possibly be known here).
I did most all the things you mention here as a young teen on our farm. Although, as a teen, I moaned and groaned like all teens do, looking back on it, I'd far prefer it to the present. As I've said in every post here, we all think differently. We all have different motivations. I think it takes a certain personality type to even aspire to such things. Obviously I have that defect--quite introverted, very nearly a misanthrope... but don't worry, I'm gentle as a lamb. No Unibomber here. Just into that little-cabin-way-out-in-the-middle-of-nowhere thing...
What I'd really like to see here is some reference or link to others practicing this lifestyle who are successful (Of course, they won't be on the internet if they are purists), or well on the road. There are some. This guy (OP reference) seems to be plugging along pretty well. I also know of a (religious) group here in Utah that do pretty well out in the middle of the desert. They, however, use some modern technology. There are more out there, I'm sure.
You have a romanticized notion of the Amish. Their quaint customs and appearance notwithstanding, they are as money driven as I am although I would never own puppy mills as they do; they apparently have no moral problem with it. A number of them haved moved to southern Colorado in recent years seeking better deals in farmland. They don't let their customs or beliefs interfere with a profit. Amish owned machine shops use electricity, not foot treadles. Did you know that the Amish have a high rate of heart disease? It's because of their high rate of consumption of red meat; they wouldn't understand or accept your dietary habits.
Yes, the Amish are sometimes "living that life" in spirit only and with a few token, stand-out sorts of lifestyle choices. I can order things from my Lehman's catalog that are "made by the Amish" and they obviously aren't hand-made with tools from the 19 century. They are made in the spirit of Chinese assembly lines.
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Originally Posted by Happy in Wyoming
If you'd like to see a real place with people with whom you'd be familiar I suggest Rich County, Utah in the northeast corner of the state. Temperature inversions are common in the winter bringing extremely cold weather, sometimes for weeks at a time. Rent a place with a few acres and see what you can grow. Stay a full year. You may love it or you may hate it; but you'll find out if it's the life you want. I can't imagine that agriculture there is an easy life. It's close as well; you can do it without spending a fortune. If it's too expensive to buy you'll still know what kind of place you want so you'll be able to look for something somewhere at your price.
Ahh, yes, the area of Randolph and Woodruff, Utah. It's about the coldest area of the state and probably the highest altitude farming area of the state. It's beautiful there. I've actually looked at property in the area--a small brick home built in the 1880's on several acres of land. It was a good buy, but since the house was actually on the historic register in Utah, I was a bit hesitant. I do love the area and have been there off and on over the years (I used to paraglide in the area once in a while). This last weekend I looked at some property in Milburn (near Fairview) that is similar--small high-altitude valley with not a lot of people.
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Originally Posted by Happy in Wyoming
But you need to do it, not "research" it. You've done enough of that.
You sure got that right...
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Originally Posted by Nor'Eastah
But somebody here has to say it: hard work does not kill you. Hard work makes you live longer. Nobody else in either of their families lived as long as they did. Scott outlived his own son John Scott by many years.
You know, I keep reading that the lifestyle was deadly. But (and I know it's anecdotal), my own family trees show just the opposite. On my father's side (all backwoods Utah country folks for the most part), most all of my relatives lived into their late eighties or nineties. My grandfather, grandmother, great grandfathers and grandmothers. Everyone I actually knew on that side of the family. On my mother's side (she spent her childhood in the poorest of Missouri farmer's circumstances (near Eldon, MO)... again grandmother died in her 90's, aunts and uncles 80's and 90's. To be fair, my grandfather lost the farm in Missouri around 1941 and moved the entire family to California--so they lived there in their later years. As you said, hard work does not kill you. That's what our bodies are designed to do. What could kill you, though, is engaging in that hard work when you're not used to it. That's the price we pay in a push-button society. We'd rather pay to work in a gym rather than working to do something productive.
You know, I keep reading that the lifestyle was deadly. But (and I know it's anecdotal), my own family trees show just the opposite. On my father's side (all backwoods Utah country folks for the most part), most all of my relatives lived into their late eighties or nineties. My grandfather, grandmother, great grandfathers and grandmothers. Everyone I actually knew on that side of the family. On my mother's side (she spent her childhood in the poorest of Missouri farmer's circumstances (near Eldon, MO)... again grandmother died in her 90's, aunts and uncles 80's and 90's. To be fair, my grandfather lost the farm in Missouri around 1941 and moved the entire family to California--so they lived there in their later years. As you said, hard work does not kill you. That's what our bodies are designed to do. What could kill you, though, is engaging in that hard work when you're not used to it. That's the price we pay in a push-button society. We'd rather pay to work in a gym rather than working to do something productive.
Work (and hard work) never killed anyone. Whoever is perpetuating that is deluded. It is a modern construct invented by people who want to sell you all the crap that makes your life "convenient". Look around yourself, this country isn't overworked, just the opposite, it is underworked, overfed and overindulged. That's why people are dying like flies from heart disease, obesity is rampant. Bellies are full of cheap garbage food and mind is empty, numbed by TV - this is your best consumer populace - dumb and stuck in debt in a dead-end job trying to pay off interest.
My father grew up during WW2, his father lived to his late 70s (more than current life expectancy in USA), his mother the same. My great grandfather lived to be 105 and he died falling off a carriage, broke his neck in an accident, would have lived much longer. My grandfather is still alive in his 80s.
They all lived rough lives, my father grew up in a family of 7 children with sometimes nothing to eat. He worked since he was 7 years old, not any work, hard labor, picking cherries in large baskets and hauling them to market, tending to cows and goats etc. My father grew up just fine, is in his 70s, happy as a clam.
So please, enough of that garbage being perpetuated that you will look like you are 80 in your 30s from hard work or that it will kill you. What is more likely is that hard work will make you live longer.
Get the "Alone in the Wilderness" DVD about Richard (?) Proeneke. He built his own cabin in Alaska and lived in it for 50 years, he was 98 when he left?
I know of a few groups here in AK (also religious) but they are neither unhooked from trade and if memory serves they have electricity either by generator and some green technology such as wind turbines and 12V systems with battery storage. They are off grid but they use electricity (probably sparingly) and they also sell their produce at farmers markets and a few may work as tradesmen. All of the communities as far as I know have cars/trucks. They are probably very like the "back to the land" community where I spent a summer in the 70s. There are individuals that live similarly here but they still have contact with the rest of the world. They are too vulnerable otherwise.
Like I said, I value my experiences both being raised on a farm and then the summer in the woods of Arkansas. It built character and grit but I'd rather have a hot shower daily than bathe in a rainstorm or haul a 5 gallon bucket up the hill, heat the water and then sequentially bathe in a washtub. And yes I recognize that the power to wash clothes comes from somewhere which is why we are investigating solar hot water and wind power in our other home because I do cherish clean sheets and will do what it takes to get them. It's a girl thing and I don't expect you to understand. Personally I'd rather bust my hump in the garden and orchard than the labor it takes to simply wash myself or our clothing/bedding in the hardest way possible. I think it time and energy better spent.
However I don't have a problem with your desire to do it the hard way really. I've met plenty of guys (always single men) that have a similar notion. I worked with one guy that discussed it with me in detail (no doubt for my past experience) and he had it down to how much provisions that he'd have to lay in for a year and how many pairs of jeans that he'd have to take with him to meet his needs, wear out ratios etc. He put a great deal of thought into it but it turned out to be more of an intellectual exercise. He was probably lonely and needed a plan for his life but a year or two later he met his current wife. They married and moved to somewhere in Arizona where he bought a ranch. Probably a happier ending IMO.
FWIW, I read this guy and his is more my style. He's also an author and is not a purist in his approach but he's well down the road to an independent lifestyle. Cam Mather: Home
I know of a few groups here in AK (also religious) but they are neither unhooked from trade and if memory serves they have electricity either by generator and some green technology such as wind turbines and 12V systems with battery storage. They are off grid but they use electricity (probably sparingly) and they also sell their produce at farmers markets and a few may work as tradesmen. All of the communities as far as I know have cars/trucks. They are probably very like the "back to the land" community where I spent a summer in the 70s. There are individuals that live similarly here but they still have contact with the rest of the world. They are too vulnerable otherwise.
Like I said, I value my experiences both being raised on a farm and then the summer in the woods of Arkansas. It built character and grit but I'd rather have a hot shower daily than bathe in a rainstorm or haul a 5 gallon bucket up the hill, heat the water and then sequentially bathe in a washtub. And yes I recognize that the power to wash clothes comes from somewhere which is why we are investigating solar hot water and wind power in our other home because I do cherish clean sheets and will do what it takes to get them. It's a girl thing and I don't expect you to understand. Personally I'd rather bust my hump in the garden and orchard than the labor it takes to simply wash myself or our clothing/bedding in the hardest way possible. I think it time and energy better spent.
However I don't have a problem with your desire to do it the hard way really. I've met plenty of guys (always single men) that have a similar notion. I worked with one guy that discussed it with me in detail (no doubt for my past experience) and he had it down to how much provisions that he'd have to lay in for a year and how many pairs of jeans that he'd have to take with him to meet his needs, wear out ratios etc. He put a great deal of thought into it but it turned out to be more of an intellectual exercise. He was probably lonely and needed a plan for his life but a year or two later he met his current wife. They married and moved to somewhere in Arizona where he bought a ranch. Probably a happier ending IMO.
FWIW, I read this guy and his is more my style. He's also an author and is not a purist in his approach but he's well down the road to an independent lifestyle. Cam Mather: Home
The daily hot shower is an American invention - I can honestly say I have never seen a group of people who are more obsessed with bathing and cleaning. The funny thing is, when you enter the homes or yards of most Americans you are appalled by the amount of mess and lack of cleanliness. I always found it weird
"Doing it the hard way" - what is hard? Some people find it hard to get out of bed in the morning. Some find it hard to clean their house or cook their own food. Some think it is hard to start a fire in the stove and heat water to do laundry, they would rather just turn on the switch and voila (!) - clothes are clean. It is all relative really.
People swear on progress and how it makes life longer but how does that happen? Most elderly Americans (and a lot of young ones too) pop pills all day long to stay alive, heck, they have to be color coded so that they don't mix them up. A lot of people lead sedentary lifestyles, obesity is rampant, heart disease hits at a younger and younger age. It used to be that doctors would expect coronary disease in people in their 50s and 60s, now you have folks in their 30s dropping like flies and keeling over keyboards. Collectively we enjoy the "easy stuff" progress brings but how many people really use their free time to pursue useful agendas? Most go the "other way", online porn, perversions of all kinds, boredom, staring at the TV all evening, cheating on their spouses etc. On top of that a lot of people are slaves to their banks, they do not own the roof above them and spend their whole lives working for the "man" all the while deluding themselves that owning that car (which, by the way is not a luxury but a necessity they would die without - even though they have to spend years paying for it) or that TV is a major improvement to the lives of their forefathers.
My father did not have to drive to work and his father worked on the farm, at home. So he needed no car and no TV and for that matter no electricity. They were still happy, lived long lives and no worse than our preoccupied, fast existence today.
The daily hot shower is an American invention - I can honestly say I have never seen a group of people who are more obsessed with bathing and cleaning. The funny thing is, when you enter the homes or yards of most Americans you are appalled by the amount of mess and lack of cleanliness. I always found it weird
I'm probably obsessed by cleanliness both personally and at home. Even with dogs you could probably eat off of my floors. It's my inherited Germanic need for order. That said, I don't so much relish my time being spent hauling and heating water to scrub self, clothes and house but would rather work in my gardens and orchard having both a clean house and being able to get clean after a sweaty day's work outdoors.
Now most people claim that there is no "women's" work but I say bunk to all that. I far prefer to do something else than clean toilets, scrub floors, washing dishes and clothes but wanting them so, I end up doing a majority of the work myself even though my DH is decent about helping out. So without modern conveniences or even off grid power sources, I'd be spending pretty much the better part of my time keeping house and coking food rather than doing the work I love or letting things slide. I've had that experience and I say no thanks. It's not about working hard. At 50 something I work rings around young people that can't seem to find the energy to walk across the street with any haste, it's about the lot of the female in a situation without time savers.
Personally my off time is spent doing internet research with some conversation here and on the Small Town forum, reading, doing the paperwork of life these days, exercising pets, doing the mending, running errands. We don't have cable TV and our two antenna channels are unreliable. And we own everything outright. If we can't pay cash, we don't buy it but we have that luxury, most don't. I get the point that you are making but I'd argue that there as many good people living honest lives as degenerates if not more. IMO the glass is half full.
I don't expect you to understand or relate to where I'm coming from but I'd be willing to bet that most women would. As you say, it's all relative.
The daily hot shower is an American invention - I can honestly say I have never seen a group of people who are more obsessed with bathing and cleaning. The funny thing is, when you enter the homes or yards of most Americans you are appalled by the amount of mess and lack of cleanliness. I always found it weird
"Doing it the hard way" - what is hard? Some people find it hard to get out of bed in the morning. Some find it hard to clean their house or cook their own food. Some think it is hard to start a fire in the stove and heat water to do laundry, they would rather just turn on the switch and voila (!) - clothes are clean. It is all relative really.
People swear on progress and how it makes life longer but how does that happen? Most elderly Americans (and a lot of young ones too) pop pills all day long to stay alive, heck, they have to be color coded so that they don't mix them up. A lot of people lead sedentary lifestyles, obesity is rampant, heart disease hits at a younger and younger age. It used to be that doctors would expect coronary disease in people in their 50s and 60s, now you have folks in their 30s dropping like flies and keeling over keyboards. Collectively we enjoy the "easy stuff" progress brings but how many people really use their free time to pursue useful agendas? Most go the "other way", online porn, perversions of all kinds, boredom, staring at the TV all evening, cheating on their spouses etc. On top of that a lot of people are slaves to their banks, they do not own the roof above them and spend their whole lives working for the "man" all the while deluding themselves that owning that car (which, by the way is not a luxury but a necessity they would die without - even though they have to spend years paying for it) or that TV is a major improvement to the lives of their forefathers.
My father did not have to drive to work and his father worked on the farm, at home. So he needed no car and no TV and for that matter no electricity. They were still happy, lived long lives and no worse than our preoccupied, fast existence today.
It is all relative, really
OD
Bunker goes over this quite a bit in the book. As I said, I was smiling and nodding most of the time as I read it. Physical labor to earn wages has become something to be looked down upon these days, actually despised. Illegal immigrant tasks. To "make it," you have to do college, buy a Lexus, Live in a 10 bedroom McMansion (even though there are only two of you and a cat named Snuggles), stand around the water cooler all day in a monkey suit, flaunt your impressiveness, and spend Saturday mornings lounging at Starbucks. That's the American dream. And if you are not actually wealthy, you must sell your next 50 years in order to appear that way (which, by the way is about 95% or more of the people around you who seem to be "making it")
I've never wanted any of that. It means zero to me. I'm certainly a thinker (actually I think too much), but I prefer to do something physically productive to sustain myself. Yet, I don't see anything productive about a job that contributes to a society addicted to consumption and entertainment. One of Bunkers responses to folks who scoff at his lifestyle is, "Excuse me? Sorry, I'm having a hard time hearing you over the rattle or your chains." Personally, that's exactly what I see when I look at our modern norm: chains. Not to mention it's coming unraveled. That's why I keep saying it's a philosophical thing. I don't want to do these things because I'm a nut for slavish labor. I aspire this direction because there is a certain freedom in "making it" by laboring directly for your own sustenance, rather than letting others labor in the hive for you (as long as you do your mind-numbed part). I've never claimed anywhere on this forum that it would be easy. It certainly won't. That's why most folks prefer 8 hours a day for pay. The rest of the time can be spent in leisure or personal interests/passions; but how about if one's passion IS that sort of lifestyle? Why not just forgo the middle ground and combine the two? Which is another good point. It is all about interest: many very difficult feats have been achieved due to intense interest.
To "make it," you have to do college, buy a Lexus, Live in a 10 bedroom McMansion (even though there are only two of you and a cat named Snuggles), stand around the water cooler all day in a monkey suit, flaunt your impressiveness, and spend Saturday mornings lounging at Starbucks. That's the American dream. And if you are not actually wealthy, you must sell your next 50 years in order to appear that way (which, by the way is about 95% or more of the people around you who seem to be "making it")
Yes, you must "do" college just as you did three hundred years ago. Harvard was founded in 1616. You need to understand what and why our civilization is. Jefferson was not an illiterate. Sadly, the classical liberal arts cirriculum has largely been lost in the trend to turn universities into little more than trade schools.
The rest is nonsense, a collective red herring. My late wife and I were both in the corporate world for years. The only real requirement is to perform. That means fifty to sixty hour weeks of brain work. If we hadn't performed we wouldn't have prospered. The images you conjure have been around for years. They weren't true fifty years ago; they're not true today. But they sure make people feel good.
Yes, you must "do" college just as you did three hundred years ago. Harvard was founded in 1616. You need to understand what and why our civilization is. Jefferson was not an illiterate. Sadly, the classical liberal arts cirriculum has largely been lost in the trend to turn universities into little more than trade schools.
The rest is nonsense, a collective red herring. My late wife and I were both in the corporate world for years. The only real requirement is to perform. That means fifty to sixty hour weeks of brain work. If we hadn't performed we wouldn't have prospered. The images you conjure have been around for years. They weren't true fifty years ago; they're not true today. But they sure make people feel good.
Actually, I would go farther and say that universities are little more than state and federal revenue machines these days (or private revenue machines as the case may be).
You are defending your lifestyle. There is no need, because I'm not attacking it. We are just on two different paths. Besides, you are not the "pretend culture" that I'm talking about anyway. You are actually wealthy (I'm assuming from correspondence with you over the years here). You are not a fresh-out-of-college guy, in debt up to his eyeballs, who assumes that that is all it takes to become Harry Sinclair, and driving a fancy car, living in a fancy house, living the "high life," etc, none of which he can afford. So now he's heavily in debt and crying at an "occupy" rally somewhere because the world owes him a Harry Sinclair lifestyle. I know you are not one of those people. I respect your lifestyle choices and achievements. But, by the same token, they are not my aspirations. They are yours.
Just for the record, though, it takes more than sheer intelligence and education to aspire to the lifestyle you have chosen. It also takes desire to do so. That's what I lack. I just don't want it. It has nothing to do with lack of brainpower or laziness. I don't want to toot my horn, but just so you know what I say here is true: I'm certainly not lazy. I can match most anyone my age both physically and mentally. My IQ is measured at around 140. I have degrees (both graduating with honors) in Mathematics and English/Writing. I lack a semester's worth of classes in having a graduate degree in structural engineering. Yet... right around that last semester I figured out that "performing" in the corporate world was not for me. It has nothing to do with intelligence. It's simply that some folks have a different path in store for them for whatever reason. Had I finished that degree, I would have spent the rest of my life in what I personally consider to be a wasteful state (for me, and me alone). Life is too short to "make it" in our modern system simply because that's what everyone else aspires to, at least if your heart is not in it. If a pursuit in life means nothing to me, I cannot seek it, regardless of ability.
But alas, we are straying--perhaps some of that will help others understand where I'm coming from and what motivates me. Maybe it will help others sort out their motivations. As far as college, I never went there in order to secure employment upon graduation. I went there because I was ravenous for knowledge; I always have been and always will be. I cannot satiate that hunger by performing in the corporate world. I can, however, in part by performing the myriad of tasks required in that self-sufficient lifestyle, which of course is more skill development than academic. But hey, there will be time for more intellectual endeavors: I can do some differential geometry, or read Nathaniel Hawthorne, Washington Irving, or Charles Brockden Brown by coal oil lamp in my off-hours, like when it's -10 below outside on a dead-of-winter night--after I bring the wood in for the night, of course.
The rest is nonsense, a collective red herring. My late wife and I were both in the corporate world for years. The only real requirement is to perform. That means fifty to sixty hour weeks of brain work. If we hadn't performed we wouldn't have prospered. The images you conjure have been around for years. They weren't true fifty years ago; they're not true today. But they sure make people feel good.
Please. I was in the same corporate world, six figure salaries, billions of dollars went through my hands daily (we managed money) and I was a top ten client for the likes of the largest trading desks on the street.
The only requirement in the corporate world is being friends with people who hold the power. There were managers in the firm that made more than me and did ten times less than me, had ten times less responsibility too, yet they were VPs and SVPs. I could go on and on about what happens internally in a corporation but the only requirement is schmoozing, careful plotting and finding creative ways to make others do the work while everyone still remembers it was your idea.
This "intellectual labor" crap is becoming irritating. It is everywhere. People think that because they can talk for 30 minutes and produce no substance whatsoever in a meeting, that somehow it makes them smart or productive. When you confront most of these "executives" with real, direct, "yay or nay" questions that come down to taking responsibility for something, most of them run for covers and hate you for asking the questions directly, in front of everyone. You get labeled "blunt" and "not a team player". All the execs do is kick the can or pass the buck and get paid serious money for it. It's a game of making connections and sucking the company dry like a milk cow until your buddy over at the next competitor offers you a better deal. Then all of a sudden "team play" doesn't mean jack and all the crap about "loyalty to the firm" that these buffoons perpetuated in all meetings and corporate functions goes out the window.
I will give you this, for every ten of these there was always one person in similar position who actually knew what was going on and did the actual work (50 or 60 hours a week). They could have fired the rest and most of the company would not have noticed.
OD
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