St. Louis Public Schools (Center, Rea: transfer, to buy, school district)

[aragx6]

^And if they're in college at all these are ostensibly kids who do, in fact, care about their education.

[scocar]

Originally Posted by flynavyj

I'm sorry, but when my wife is teaching 7th and 8th grade mathematics to a bunch of 20-30 year old college students because they never received the fundamentals during their primar education, there is clearly a problem! This problem is evidenced by the administrations, faculty, parents, and students, plus the policies of the various public education venues that ALLOWED these children to be passed on to the next grade level instead of forcing remedial education when it could have done some good. I can't imagine having four mathematics courses to complete before being allowed and deemed capable of taking college algebra!

Mathematics is a unique animal in the education spectrum. Some peoples brains just don't think mathematically. In many cases the 20-30 year old college students will never retain the math that they learn. And many of them may have passed their math class at the time they took it. My wife graduated high school, and has a psychology degree. Her math skills are astonishingly poor to me. She's very bright, creative, and verbally skilled. But she just doesn't get math. I don't think math is a good example to use.

[STLviaMSP]

Before drifting off into a digression on mathematics instruction, lets get focused again. The key is focusing on solutions that do not involve funneling good kids out of the public school system into private schools, charter schools, or magnet schools. At the neighborhood level. Since we all seem to agree that it's sucky families that drag down the students' test scores. So here are a few thoughts:

1) Certainly there are enough young families in the city with no particular connection to the parochial/private school "system" (e.g. they won't blindly send their kids down the parochial school route just like daddy and grandaddy) in key neighborhoods to create a critical mass of public schoolchildren in at least one neighborhood school. Is there a neighborhood with 300 such families? IF those families would commit to enrolling in that one neighborhood school, it would find itself overwhelmed with good kids, and miraculously turn into a good school. It isn't rocket science, folks. That is pretty much the outcome. I can say that with 109.34% certainty.

2) The parents have to play hardball with the bad families and administrators. This will get ugly first, and then the good parents will win because the parents that care also probably pay a lot more taxes than those that don't. Money always talks. Those parents should be ready to lawyer up and get litigious if administration won't promptly expel or suspend disruptive students. Establish a pattern of doing so and make it implicit that bad behavior will not be tolerated.

3) Grow a thick skin re race issues and never back down. It's 2012 - THE FUTURE - and anyone still talking about race as the issue is living in the stone ages. It's an economics issue stemming from concentrated multigenerational poverty, plain and simple, that often correlates to but is not exclusively tied to race, nothing more. Treat it as such at all times, and aggressively shut down anyone that tries to pin these issues on race, because discussions of race are at best a destructive diversion from the real issues. Never back down from that stance.

What other ideas are out there? Surely you have all thought about how to solve this problem, the tangible steps that must be taken and so forth. The only changes that ever occur in the world are the result of insistent people with high standards who refuse to back down for anything.

[goat314]

Originally Posted by STLviaMSP

Before drifting off into a digression on mathematics instruction, lets get focused again. The key is focusing on solutions that do not involve funneling good kids out of the public school system into private schools, charter schools, or magnet schools. At the neighborhood level. Since we all seem to agree that it's sucky families that drag down the students' test scores. So here are a few thoughts:

1) Certainly there are enough young families in the city with no particular connection to the parochial/private school "system" (e.g. they won't blindly send their kids down the parochial school route just like daddy and grandaddy) in key neighborhoods to create a critical mass of public schoolchildren in at least one neighborhood school. Is there a neighborhood with 300 such families? IF those families would commit to enrolling in that one neighborhood school, it would find itself overwhelmed with good kids, and miraculously turn into a good school. It isn't rocket science, folks. That is pretty much the outcome. I can say that with 109.34% certainty.

2) The parents have to play hardball with the bad families and administrators. This will get ugly first, and then the good parents will win because the parents that care also probably pay a lot more taxes than those that don't. Money always talks. Those parents should be ready to lawyer up and get litigious if administration won't promptly expel or suspend disruptive students. Establish a pattern of doing so and make it implicit that bad behavior will not be tolerated.

3) Grow a thick skin re race issues and never back down. It's 2012 - THE FUTURE - and anyone still talking about race as the issue is living in the stone ages. It's an economics issue stemming from concentrated multigenerational poverty, plain and simple, that often correlates to but is not exclusively tied to race, nothing more. Treat it as such at all times, and aggressively shut down anyone that tries to pin these issues on race, because discussions of race are at best a destructive diversion from the real issues. Never back down from that stance.

What other ideas are out there? Surely you have all thought about how to solve this problem, the tangible steps that must be taken and so forth. The only changes that ever occur in the world are the result of insistent people with high standards who refuse to back down for anything.

Race is still very much an issue in this country, because race is so directly linked to socioeconomic disparity due to America's legacy as an institutionally racist country. Race will ALWAYS be an issue in America for certain demographics. Racism is still very much a real issue and one of the REALEST issues we have in this country. To deny that is just as ignorant as blaming everything on racism.

[goat314]

I've taught at SLPS and I must say that the city schools are not near as bad as many would believe. Most have the same modern amenities as schools in the suburbs like Parkway, Rockwood etc. The main problem is POVERTY and the subsequent culture of poverty!

It really boils down to do I want my children to be exposed to people of different socioeconomic and racial backgrounds, mainly poor, inner city black children. Sadly the answer is a big "NO!" for the majority of middle class white families in St. Louis (and the whole country for that matter). The perfect storm of Brown vs. Board of Education, Urban Renewal/Slum Clearance, and Federal-Aid Highway Act of 1956 bled many urban cores dry. St. Louis was disproportionally hurt because it is centrally located/landlocked, old economy, and didn't have a suburban tax base to fall back on.

Going back to neighborhood schools sounds good in theory, but the problem is that the Plessy vs. Ferguson Case (separate but equal) didn't address the vast socioeconomic disparities between blacks and whites, which came from centuries of institutional slavery and an additional century of Jim Crow policies. That is why the Brown vs. The Board of Education and Civil Rights Acts of the 1960s had to be passed. Unfortunately, it only further exacerbated the problem. Black communities would have probably been better off with equal funding for their own schools instead of the forced busing policies, but that would have sounded to much like reparations to some people.

[flynavyj]

Originally Posted by scocar

Mathematics is a unique animal in the education spectrum. Some peoples brains just don't think mathematically. In many cases the 20-30 year old college students will never retain the math that they learn. And many of them may have passed their math class at the time they took it. My wife graduated high school, and has a psychology degree. Her math skills are astonishingly poor to me. She's very bright, creative, and verbally skilled. But she just doesn't get math. I don't think math is a good example to use.

I don't think the point here is saying that Mathematics is unique...it's really no more unique than the chronological memorization of specific events for a History course, the visual observation skills and planning necessary for Art, or the grammatical rules necessary for successful English. Each subject matter is inherently unique, hence the necessity for a well rounded education, with utilizing effective educators who have the ability to teach this material to students of various socioeconomic backgrounds...being able to understand and utilize a number line for the sake of adding and subtracting positive and negative numbers should have been covered in about forth grade, not college. Remembering the use of the quadratic equation is something I wouldn't expect a person to remember if you don't use those skills on a regular basis (Heck, i'd have to look it up)...however basic mathematical skills necessary for living in ANY modern society around the world should be taught, and perfected throughout an individuals education, whether it comes easy to you or not.

[STLviaMSP]

That is zero additional proposals. Still waiting.

And, viewing anything through a race lens in this day and age is a complete waste of time and brainpower. Economics is the only reality that matters.

[goat314]

Originally Posted by STLviaMSP

That is zero additional proposals. Still waiting.

And, viewing anything through a race lens in this day and age is a complete waste of time and brainpower. Economics is the only reality that matters.

Again this your perspective. Racism is still very real. Economics is real too, but if you have never dealt with real racism it would be hard to see.

[marigolds6]

Originally Posted by STLviaMSP

Those parents should be ready to lawyer up and get litigious if administration won't promptly expel or suspend disruptive students. Establish a pattern of doing so and make it implicit that bad behavior will not be tolerated.

They will lose that lawsuit.

The Missouri Constitution has a right to education that bars most expulsions. As a result, state law limits suspensions to 10 days per school year, unless the school board rules that a student can be suspend for longer (but no more than 180 days). Suspensions for more than 10 days or expulsions can only occur if a student is indicted for actions on campus of charges of 1st degree murder, 2nd degree murder, 1st degree assault, forcible rape, forcible sodomy, statutory rape, statutory sodomy, 1st degree robbery, distribution of drugs to a minor, 1st degree arson, or felony kidnapping. If the student is acquitted of the charge, they must be readmitted immediately. Disabled students cannot be expelled unless the crime involved a weapon and/or caused serious bodily injury or it is demonstrated via manifest hearing that their crime was in no way connected to their disability.
Expelled students have a right to appeal, and must be allowed to remain in school until the appeals are exhausted, unless their crime involved serious bodily injury or they demonstrate a continue physical threat.

[aragx6]

Originally Posted by STLviaMSP

That is zero additional proposals. Still waiting.

And, viewing anything through a race lens in this day and age is a complete waste of time and brainpower. Economics is the only reality that matters.

Wow, you gave us 10 whole hours; thanks!

Which neighborhoods do you see being primed for this sort of thing? I know it can happen; I saw it in Chicago -- I'm just thinking 300 families is a lot.