St Louis - The 51st State? (St. Louis, Springfield: homes, unemployed, neighborhood)

[Flyover_Country]

Originally Posted by carloslevy

Most important is where they went to high school.

That's the #2 best way to tell if somebody is from around St. Louis. #1 is if they say "farty" instead of "forty."

Originally Posted by RisingAurvandil

And this is the problem with your thinking. It's always ME, ME, ME. Discrediting an entire mode because it has "zero worth" to yourself is terrible. I may as well claim that I don't value anything west of Eureka.

That's fine. I suggest that we pay for things primarily at the county level. If you want to shell out a bunch of money for empty trains and empty buses, be my guest. I just don't want to be forced to do so.

And lemme' say this, you do not furnish your own transportation. You did not design our roads. You did not build them. You do not maintain them. And our gas tax does not fully pay for them.

Hmm, furnish my own transportation? (looks in the file cabinet and sees titles to cars) Yep, it looks like I do. And pay for roads? (looks in the file cabinet for state and federal tax returns, sees them, then cusses and shakes head slowly) Yep, I sure as hell do. I know gas taxes don't pay completely for roads, which is why I mentioned my *income* taxes which at least as far as the State of Missouri's cost for roads *do* make up the missing portion of the costs not covered by gas, wheel, and registration taxes.

And the state of Missouri pays almost nothing for public transit. Less than 9 cents per capita, to be precise. I pay more tax on a single gallon of gas.

And it's still a waste. It should be self-supporting as only a very small number of people actually use this highly subsidized manner of transportation. Last time I checked the Metrolink and Bi-State buses stopped at least 200 miles away from my front door, yet I still pay for them. I'll pay for my roads if you pay for your buses and choo-choos. Deal?

So let me get this straight, being a commuter school or being expensive somehow make a university less worthy? And you forgot Webster, Lindenwood, McKendree, StLCOP, SIUE, and Maryville, and probably a dozen others.

None are Yale or Harvard, but you don't have such a breadth of choices in out-state Missouri. Not even in Columbia.

Mizzou for all of its flaws such as having employed that idiot Melissa Click and a few other goofballs (mainly as basketball coaches) is still the largest and most comprehensive public institution of higher education in the state, and it's not in St. Louis. There are also far more institutions in "out-state" Missouri than inside the St. Louis metro area. UM-Rolla, NW MO State, NE Mo State/Truman State, SEMO, and Southwest Missouri State come to mind as some of the larger ones.

[RisingAurvandil]

Originally Posted by Flyover_Country

That's fine. I suggest that we pay for things primarily at the county level. If you want to shell out a bunch of money for empty trains and empty buses, be my guest. I just don't want to be forced to do so.

We do pay at the city/county. You pay almost nothing for transit here. Literally, less than a dime in 2015.

Originally Posted by Flyover_Country

Hmm, furnish my own transportation? (looks in the file cabinet and sees titles to cars) Yep, it looks like I do. And pay for roads? (looks in the file cabinet for state and federal tax returns, sees them, then cusses and shakes head slowly) Yep, I sure as hell do.

Your car isn't going far without our highways. So no, you do not furnish your own transportation, only the vehicle.

Originally Posted by Flyover_Country

Last time I checked the Metrolink and Bi-State buses stopped at least 200 miles away from my front door, yet I still pay for them. I'll pay for my roads if you pay for your buses and choo-choos. Deal?

Deal. I would support each region keeping its own tax revenue. And remember, I pay for hundreds of empty rural letter routes that serve as glorified driveways.

Choo-Choo? What h̶i̶g̶h̶ ̶s̶c̶h̶o̶o̶l̶ grade school d̶i̶d̶ you attend?

Which is funny, because you also posted this...

Originally Posted by Flyover_Country

I know gas taxes don't pay completely for roads, which is why I mentioned my *income* taxes which at least as far as the State of Missouri's cost for roads *do* make up the missing portion of the costs not covered by gas, wheel, and registration taxes.

So lemme' get this straight, subsidies for roads are acceptable, but not for transit? You do realize that every county in MO has some form of transit service, that not every citizen is capable of operating a vehicle?

People pay gas taxes and other taxes subsidize the rest. People pay transit fares and other taxes subsidize the rest. Same concept.

Originally Posted by Flyover_Country

There are also far more institutions in "out-state" Missouri than inside the St. Louis metro area. UM-Rolla, NW MO State, NE Mo State/Truman State, SEMO, and Southwest Missouri State come to mind as some of the larger ones.

Scattered across the state. Apparently no outstate city can muster more than one or two universities. Springfield maybe, I'll give you that.

And in sarcastic reference to your fiscal beliefs, all of those are state-run schools that would starve without the trough of state tax dollars. I don't want to be funding schools that are 200 miles from my doorstep. Perhaps outstate can't sustain large-cap private sector education?

[FrankMiller]

Originally Posted by Flyover_Country

Hmm, furnish my own transportation? (looks in the file cabinet and sees titles to cars) Yep, it looks like I do. And pay for roads? (looks in the file cabinet for state and federal tax returns, sees them, then cusses and shakes head slowly) Yep, I sure as hell do. I know gas taxes don't pay completely for roads, which is why I mentioned my *income* taxes which at least as far as the State of Missouri's cost for roads *do* make up the missing portion of the costs not covered by gas, wheel, and registration taxes.



And it's still a waste. It should be self-supporting as only a very small number of people actually use this highly subsidized manner of transportation. Last time I checked the Metrolink and Bi-State buses stopped at least 200 miles away from my front door, yet I still pay for them. I'll pay for my roads if you pay for your buses and choo-choos. Deal?

If you're 200 miles away from a city, you're benefiting from huge state and federal subsidies, especially roads. And if you knew anything about urban planning, you'd know crappy transit contributes to sprawl that costs money for more suburban roads at the expense of your roads. Refusing to fund transit at the state level is not fiscally responsible, it's costly and short-sighted. Opponents paint it like a handout to your irresponsible neighbor, but it's more like refusing to fix the cracks in your house's foundation.

[STL2006]

Originally Posted by FrankMiller

I thought the stereotype of St. Charles county was selfish working-class white people who would rather build cheap McMansions in cornfields an hour from work than risk living next to a black person.

I'll let my co-workers who live in St. Charles County know the stereotype has been updated by the STL City Self-Righteous Squad. Will be kind of strange for my African American and Indian co-workers who live there, but hey, if it's the new stereotype, so be it.

Full disclosure, I've been looking at moving from SLC to SCC myself. For what I paid in SLC, my co-workers and friends are in a nicer, newer house, and their commute to work is about the same as mine to Maryland Heights. Doubt I'll do it though, I like where I'm at.

[FrankMiller]

Originally Posted by STL2006

I'll let my co-workers who live in St. Charles County know the stereotype has been updated by the STL City Self-Righteous Squad. Will be kind of strange for my African American and Indian co-workers who live there, but hey, if it's the new stereotype, so be it.

Full disclosure, I've been looking at moving from SLC to SCC myself. For what I paid in SLC, my co-workers and friends are in a nicer, newer house, and their commute to work is about the same as mine to Maryland Heights. Doubt I'll do it though, I like where I'm at.

I kinda thought it was the old stereotype. But anyway, don't shoot me, I'm just the messenger.

[STL2006]

Originally Posted by FrankMiller

I kinda thought it was the old stereotype. But anyway, don't shoot me, I'm just the messenger.

Not at all, not about me anyway! I'm stereotyped as one of the "rich white people who live in Western St. Louis County and only go downtown for Cardinals games."

Even though I go downtown all the time for many things besides sporting events, and am not rich. I'm white. That's about it.

[STL74]

Originally Posted by STL2006

I'll let my co-workers who live in St. Charles County know the stereotype has been updated by the STL City Self-Righteous Squad. Will be kind of strange for my African American and Indian co-workers who live there, but hey, if it's the new stereotype, so be it.

Full disclosure, I've been looking at moving from SLC to SCC myself. For what I paid in SLC, my co-workers and friends are in a nicer, newer house, and their commute to work is about the same as mine to Maryland Heights. Doubt I'll do it though, I like where I'm at.

St. Charles county originally grew out of white flight from North County. So it earned some of that reputation. It's getting different growth now (like people who are priced out of west county), but turning down metrolink expansions (to keep the rif raf out) and flipping out over busing kids from unaccredited North County schools doesn't help their case.

[RisingAurvandil]

Originally Posted by STL74

St. Charles county originally grew out of white flight from North County. So it earned some of that reputation. It's getting different growth now (like people who are priced out of west county), but turning down metrolink expansions (to keep the rif raf out) and flipping out over busing kids from unaccredited North County schools doesn't help their case.

In their credit, the same response would occur if Metrolink or busing was proposed for West County, South County, or JeffCo. And the same white flight would have occurred if blacks were instead steered into those areas.

You guys may have noticed, but every time I hear people harping on St. Charles migrants, they are usually from an area that is middle-class and predominately white (aka, areas that haven't had to deal with flight). I never hear folks from North County ripping people in St. Charles for seeking better schools and lower crime.

[FrankMiller]

Originally Posted by RisingAurvandil

I never hear folks from North County ripping people in St. Charles for seeking better schools and lower crime.

Really? I sure do.

I agree that St. Charles isn't much different from West or South county, politically, except that the former doesn't have any political counterbalance.

[RisingAurvandil]

Originally Posted by FrankMiller

Really? I sure do.

Ok, it might be because most of the NoCo people I know have already left for St. Charles or Madison County.

Nonetheless though, it still bugs me when I hear folks from West County, Mid-County, or South County harping on St. Charles. As if they ever had to deal with plummeting property values, rising crime, and declining schools...