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I grew up in St. Louis and visit often, and certainly wish it well, but the worst part is that downtown is so small for a metro area of almost 3 million people. Denver is about the same size and its downtown is practically in a different solar system from St. Louis's. Pittsburgh and Cincinnati are smaller metro areas but have much bigger and nicer downtowns.
Downtown St Louis is nothing to Bragg on.
I think we have a very good collection of neighborhoods. Even some of our suburbs like Maplewood, University City and Clayton are pretty awesome for a metro at 3 million. They do come at a hit to downtown St.Louis. If Downtown St Louis was surrounded by neighborhoods like Soulard, Central West End, The Grove, The Loop, Tower Grove and The Hill, Downtown wouldn't look anything like it does now.
Btw, I would move to Denver in a heartbeat if I was at a different place in life.
I think we have a very good collection of neighborhoods. Even some of our suburbs like Maplewood, University City and Clayton are pretty awesome for a metro at 3 million. They do come at a hit to downtown St.Louis. If Downtown St Louis was surrounded by neighborhoods like Soulard, Central West End, The Grove, The Loop, Tower Grove and The Hill, Downtown wouldn't look anything like it does now.
Btw, I would move to Denver in a heartbeat if I was at a different place in life.
In many cities our size Maplewood, U City and Clayton would equal the most built urban part of the city.
I grew up in St. Louis and visit often, and certainly wish it well, but the worst part is that downtown is so small for a metro area of almost 3 million people. Denver is about the same size and its downtown is practically in a different solar system from St. Louis's. Pittsburgh and Cincinnati are smaller metro areas but have much bigger and nicer downtowns.
Pittsburgh's downtown is actually quite small in land area (you can easily walk to its northernmost, southernmost, easternmost & westernmost reaches without breaking much of a sweat). I've been to St. Louis various times (though it hasn't been since 1981) and, from what I saw of downtown St. Louis, though I didn't systematically explore every square inch of it and its entire strtech of land area, seemed to impress me as that much "bigger" than Pittsburgh's downtown area . . . unless my perceptions and remembrances are incomplete or off to whatever degree.
Pittsburgh's downtown is actually quite small in land area (you can easily walk to its northernmost, southernmost, easternmost & westernmost reaches without breaking much of a sweat). I've been to St. Louis various times (though it hasn't been since 1981) and, from what I saw of downtown St. Louis, though I didn't systematically explore every square inch of it and its entire strtech of land area, seemed to impress me as that much "bigger" than Pittsburgh's downtown area . . . unless my perceptions and remembrances are incomplete or off to whatever degree.
I also thought that was a strange comment. What I will say is that St. Louis' scale is much grander than many "peer" cities. St. Louis was the 4th largest city in 1900 and it shows. There is a crapload of construction going on in downtown St. Louis, but somebody driving down the highway at 70mph is not going to immediately notice it because the construction mostly consists of renovating century old buildings the size of a city block. Take a city like Nashville or Denver for example, they don't have nearly half of the historic stock that St. Louis has, so if they add 1000 units to their downtown it will come in the form of four 250 unit towers, which will certainly add to the skyline. St. Louis adding the same number of units will look like the renovation of a few huge garment factories. While that is cool as hell to me, most people will always think a shiny new hi-rise is far more impressive. What I will say is that downtown St. Louis will likely have a mini hi-rise boom once the last remaining historic stock is redeveloped. At that point the only way downtown can grow is through significant infill and downtown already has a lot of subway stations where major TOD development can occur.
St. Louis is a historically big city meaning that at the time it was developing it was naturally intended to be compact and mostly walkable....not sprawled out across the countryside. Farms were close by bringing produce into town. Trollies and rail lines ran out to satellite communities like St. Charles, Ferguson, and Maplewood. Clay mines in the western part of the city provided the bricks that you see today. It was reasonably efficient in the context of the time. The definition of "big city" changed with the advent of the automobile. The city was impacted by this change and major development became more dispersed and clustered on cheaper land. After WW-II the suburbs became more attractive and accessible with the construction of freeways...a huge chunk of city population shifted to the suburbs. People liked cars, gas was cheap and efficiency took a back seat. The remaining historic core of the city is a major asset along with the various city neighborhoods and near-by suburbs. St. Louis doesn't feel like Houston or Phoenix or Dallas because it was never intended to be that type of city. Baltimore or Cincinnati might be a closer comparison.
As much as it pains me to admit it, this city holds up well for a city that has been rapidly shrinking. I'm stuck here nonetheless since it's the only city that I can afford to live in, so I guess that I'll have to learn to like it somehow.
I am a recently transplanted Professional Engineer from Chicago, and here is what I have noticed over several months:
(1) The overall pace here is a lethargic one, people tend to drive, walk, think and talk slowly, defintely not a core trait of a big city.
(2) Downtown dies at 5:00 PM (excepting sporting events, I will concede that Cardinal fans are among the most devout in baseball), defintely not a core trait of a big city.
(3) Most of the major touring bands/artists bypass St. Louis on their tours, defintely not a core trait of a big city.
(4) Most of the natives I've met are insecure, self-flagellating social martyrs that lock themselves in, defintely not a core trait of a big city.
(5) The very few five-star restaurants/attractions are located in Clayton, not the central urban core. Yes it's great to have a free zoo and other attractions, but when there are bona fide safety concerns and parking quagmires, that is a sign of poor urban leadership, defintely not a core trait of a big city.
(6) Losing more Fortune 500 companies than gaining them is defintely not a core trait of a big city.
I grew up in St. Louis and visit often, and certainly wish it well, but the worst part is that downtown is so small for a metro area of almost 3 million people. Denver is about the same size and its downtown is practically in a different solar system from St. Louis's. Pittsburgh and Cincinnati are smaller metro areas but have much bigger and nicer downtowns.
But you have to also consider the city/county divide. Not too many other areas have 2 downtown districts either. When you factor in Downtown Clayton, that makes up for the large-ness of downtown Cincy or Pittsburgh because that's the only downtown district they have. Take Clayton and downtown St. Louis and you'll get the total feel of what the metro downtown would really look like.
I am a recently transplanted Professional Engineer from Chicago, and here is what I have noticed over several months:
(1) The overall pace here is a lethargic one, people tend to drive, walk, think and talk slowly, defintely not a core trait of a big city.
(2) Downtown dies at 5:00 PM (excepting sporting events, I will concede that Cardinal fans are among the most devout in baseball), defintely not a core trait of a big city.
(3) Most of the major touring bands/artists bypass St. Louis on their tours, defintely not a core trait of a big city.
(4) Most of the natives I've met are insecure, self-flagellating social martyrs that lock themselves in, defintely not a core trait of a big city.
(5) The very few five-star restaurants/attractions are located in Clayton, not the central urban core. Yes it's great to have a free zoo and other attractions, but when there are bona fide safety concerns and parking quagmires, that is a sign of poor urban leadership, defintely not a core trait of a big city.
(6) Losing more Fortune 500 companies than gaining them is defintely not a core trait of a big city.
I lived in Chicago for several years. It is a great city in many ways. There is a big difference between Chicago and St. Louis. Chicago is so rich in culture its overwhelming to take in the whole city. Very few places can come close to being a good comparison. St. Louis isn't one of them.
The pace is much slower here then Chicago! When I would leave Chicago and visit other cities I would get frustrated with the slow pace and bad customer service. As with anything else I've adjusted with time just like I adjusted leaving slow paced Memphis for big city Chicago.
DT is not our best attribute and definitely not anywhere being close to being on Chicago level. However, I don't have a problem catching a movie after 5 or getting in a round of bowling or getting a bite to eat or picking up groceries or having a drink after 5 in DT St Louis. There are many after 5 options for people who are interested in experiencing it.
Definitely agree with your statement about the natives. Chicago natives are just as insular. They have some stupid traditions that they couldn't let go of if their life depended upon it. Many are into their tough guy thing. I'm from such and such neighborhood and I am tough type of bs. Many native Chicagoans don't venture outside their neighborhood mentally. They only know what they know. Its sad because Chicago is a huge sophisticated city but the mentality of the natives doesn't reflect that.
It is no secret that Chicago is better restaraunt town. Once again, St. Louis isn't on Chicago's level but you shouldn't have a problem finding good food. If you can survive Chicago crime and not fear getting beatup in brawl on a northside beach on memorial day (seems to be an annual thing and it shows how stupid and remedial "the chicago way mentality" is) or being robbed in Wrigleyville, you will be fine going to the zoo or any other Forest Pk attraction. Most of the better attractions and restaurants are within the central corridor of the city. Parking should not be a problem at all by comparison to the Chicago parking mess. Please don't get me started with what happened with Chicago parking meter fiasco. Mayor Daily got that city into a deep mess that tax payers will be paying for for years.
Your reaction to St. Louis is not typical of most of my Chicago friends but of one who has never known life outside of Chicago. St. Louis doesn't work for everyone. It works for many. No place is the end all be all. Provo Utah will offer something different then Seattle just as St. Louis offers something different then Chicago. Its the way it is.
St. Louis doesn't feel on par with NYC, London or Chicago by any stretch. With that said, it doesn't really feel small, either.
When I first moved here from Australia, I did find downtown, and the lack of attention given to the river very strange. In major Australian cities (Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane), waterfront by the CBD (downtown) is something that is far more capitalized on. In addition, the CBD's felt bigger and more vibrant than St. Louis's downtown.
With that said, the infrastructure in terms of number of bridges and interstate accessibility is far superior here in St. Louis, and there is a lot to do and see, especially if you have kids.
We are heading back east to visit family again this year and will be within daytrip distance of both Raleigh and Charlotte. When I lived in NC my kids weren't born yet. While I've pinpointed a couple of fun things to take them to, it's clear that St. Louis has a lot more for families, and a lot more affordable options.
So does St. Louis feel big? It isn't a mega city, but in spite of its flaws, it feels big enough to give my children a wonderful and inspiring place to grow up.
(2) Downtown dies at 5:00 PM (excepting sporting events, I will concede that Cardinal fans are among the most devout in baseball), defintely not a core trait of a big city.
Have you walked down Wall St. in Manhattan at night? Central Business Districts tend to be full of offices, not attractions, that's not unique to St. Louis.
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