Does St. Louis, Missouri feel like a big city to you? (O'Fallon: condos, houses)

[ThreeSides]

My wife and I are considering moving to St. Louis. When we were dating, we always enjoyed visiting.

We're going to have to look into Missouri's stance on home schooling.

[SunGrins]

I grew up there but moved away after college in the 1970s to central Missouri. Both my parents worked downtown so we had a city focus even after we moved to the north suburbs from the Dogtown area. It was always a big city to me and (after moving to central Mo.) it seemed to have a regional impact larger than Kansas City. St. Louis knew it was a big city and, like a cat, it has several lives and lots of history. Kansas City never quite figured it out and seems to wrestle with the big city concept even today. St. Louis is an eastern-style city with Midwestern suburbs. It was designed ad hoc but as a compact pedestrian city. The steamboat fire that destroyed most of the city in the 1840s resulted in the place being rebuilt in brick which gives it its characteristic sturdy residential image. I have relatives near Benton Park and I always enjoy walking the neighborhood.

I share everyone's frustration with grocery stores but I now live 1,000 miles away in NM. It's the same everywhere. Distributors don't supply the same products so when a store changes distributors you are out of luck. I have to go to four stores sometimes.

I like NM food but I crave St. Louis food. When you leave a place that's what you miss the most. Last time I was there I came home with two-pounds of Provel cheese. I tried making Gooey Butter Cake but at over 5000 feet elevation it never became cake. Fried ravioli is awful here...nasty grease pillows (poor imitation of Toasted Ravioli). They make some good ribs but it is hard to find "pork steaks" (it's a pork shoulder blade steak here if you can find it). Pork tenderloin sandwiches are disappointing -- they really don't know how to make them. Brain sandwiches are nonexistent -- maybe that's a good thing because they do strange things with innards here anyway. Somebody send me some Toasted Ravioli...please.

[glamatomic]

Originally Posted by ThreeSides

My wife and I are considering moving to St. Louis. When we were dating, we always enjoyed visiting.

We're going to have to look into Missouri's stance on home schooling.

Missouri is one of the easiest states for homeschooling, and there are so many co-ops and resources for homeschoolers here in St. Louis!

You don't have to register for intent to homeschool unless you are pulling your child out of a public school. You do have to keep logs showing hours of instruction and examples of work, but no family I know has ever been asked to present any of it.

[STL1980]

There should be a concerted effort to rebuilt the grid and connectivity of the city core from the Arch to Forest Park. That includes, drive-able streets, bike-able streets and walk-able streets. Forgo all of the latest cutsie rain-gardens and needless planters BS and keep curbside parking; look to historic photos of a standard street and grid system for inspiration and to keep costs low. They certainly seem to have worked well in the past.. Rebuilding this entire core and density will enable us to be on a level of Chicago or mini NYC.. Not many other cities have that historic/ urban density of an area that size. THAT should be the goal of the city, and it can spill north and south directly from it.

[ThreeSides]

Originally Posted by glamatomic

Missouri is one of the easiest states for homeschooling, and there are so many co-ops and resources for homeschoolers here in St. Louis!

You don't have to register for intent to homeschool unless you are pulling your child out of a public school. You do have to keep logs showing hours of instruction and examples of work, but no family I know has ever been asked to present any of it.

I really appreciate your reply, thanks a lot!

[Chicago76]

Originally Posted by STL1980

There should be a concerted effort to rebuilt the grid and connectivity of the city core from the Arch to Forest Park. That includes, drive-able streets, bike-able streets and walk-able streets. Forgo all of the latest cutsie rain-gardens and needless planters BS and keep curbside parking; look to historic photos of a standard street and grid system for inspiration and to keep costs low. They certainly seem to have worked well in the past.. Rebuilding this entire core and density will enable us to be on a level of Chicago or mini NYC.. Not many other cities have that historic/ urban density of an area that size. THAT should be the goal of the city, and it can spill north and south directly from it.

I agree with the sentiment that reconnecting things is needed. As far us that leading us to Chicago levels of built environment/commercial activity...just no. Let's take an area of Chicago without massive highrises...places like Southport Corridor or Wicker Park. To get to those levels of density/commercial appeal, starting with our most dense areas of the city (think CWE, best S. City nabes), we'd need to double the level of housing density. We'd also need to see income/housing unit go up about 20% on average from CWE levels to support all of the storefront commercial.

We might be able to convince 1 in 20 upper middle households living in well off suburban areas like Chesterfield to relocate to the corridor in the coming decades, but that level of vitality would require roughly 1 in 2 of those types to relocate to the central corridor in the next 20-30 years. Not happening.

Focusing on what we actually can be: look to Over-the-Rhine in Cincinnati as a decent model, some of the vibrant areas of Pittsburgh or the more desirable off the waterfront neighborhoods in Baltimore. We need to focus on connecting nodes/hubs more effectively and then building those out. Nodes like downtown--> Midtown-->Grove-->Central West End-->the roots of something west of SLU that can sit between Midtown/CWE/Grove. Even as those areas area built up, there's still tons of empty space. There's simply way too space+not enough $$$/people to get the level of cohesion/density you'll find in a Chicago, Boston, or even Philly.

[pwduvall]

Originally Posted by Chicago76

I agree with the sentiment that reconnecting things is needed. As far us that leading us to Chicago levels of built environment/commercial activity...just no. Let's take an area of Chicago without massive highrises...places like Southport Corridor or Wicker Park. To get to those levels of density/commercial appeal, starting with our most dense areas of the city (think CWE, best S. City nabes), we'd need to double the level of housing density. We'd also need to see income/housing unit go up about 20% on average from CWE levels to support all of the storefront commercial.

We might be able to convince 1 in 20 upper middle households living in well off suburban areas like Chesterfield to relocate to the corridor in the coming decades, but that level of vitality would require roughly 1 in 2 of those types to relocate to the central corridor in the next 20-30 years. Not happening.

Focusing on what we actually can be: look to Over-the-Rhine in Cincinnati as a decent model, some of the vibrant areas of Pittsburgh or the more desirable off the waterfront neighborhoods in Baltimore. We need to focus on connecting nodes/hubs more effectively and then building those out. Nodes like downtown--> Midtown-->Grove-->Central West End-->the roots of something west of SLU that can sit between Midtown/CWE/Grove. Even as those areas area built up, there's still tons of empty space. There's simply way too space+not enough $$$/people to get the level of cohesion/density you'll find in a Chicago, Boston, or even Philly.

PWD from Baltimore here. I have never been to Saint Louis but some of the posts in this tread make me feel like I have. Focusing on connecting the nodes is a great idea. It will probably take some pump priming at first but if the nodes are close enough and strong enough it WILL work. I have never seen any kind of written plan, but it sure appears that Baltimore is trying to connect Hopkins Hospital, downtown, the prospering waterfront, and some smaller nodes together in East Baltimore. Sadly, West Baltimore (home of Freddy Grary, etc.) doesn't have much to connect.

This post made me think of a neighborhood activist that demanded about ten years ago that North Avenue and Charles Street remain completely run down in order that people living in the two big ghettos (East and West Baltimore) would be able to travel back and forth without being assaulted by signs of prosperity. Needless to say, nobody paid much attention and the Charles Street corridor continues to be slowly built out. Sadly, the activist (who was much loved) died too young from cancer. But at least he wasn't forced to see his worst fears come true.

I liked the thought about there not being enough money in town to create widespread rapid gentrification. That is certainly true here. To my great frustration, neither the pro or anti gentrification folks seem to understand that.

I suggest that community development folks bite off exactly as much as they can chew - which, of course, is impossible to know ahead of time. What works in Baltimore will probably work in Saint Louis and vice versa. The cities are demographic brothers in some ways.

[MUTGR]

Originally Posted by TheGuardian

Having spent ample time in both Baltimore and St. Louis via military/civilian work placement, that is an excellent and accurate comparison. May I offer a few more ironies between St. Louis and Baltimore?

(1) Exceptionally high crime rates that deter and impede any forward economic development in the inner city area (hey, the BAL and the FERG know how to set the standards for destructive riots, eh?), and
(2) Both towns metaphorically jealous of their "Big Brothers" - for St. Louis it's Chicago, for BAL it's DC/Philly.

I've heard from another Baltimore transplant to STL how similar the cities are, both good and bad.

[MOforthewin]

Originally Posted by MUTGR

I've heard from another Baltimore transplant to STL how similar the cities are, both good and bad.

I've said it before too. I mean, both were border cities during the civil war as well and became more industrialized after the war.

[STL1980]

and both cities are making huge comebacks!