Does St. Louis, Missouri feel like a big city to you? (Kansas City: live in, vs.)

[Chicago76]

Originally Posted by pwduvall

PWD from Baltimore here. I have never been to Saint Louis but some of the posts in this tread make me feel like I have. Focusing on connecting the nodes is a great idea. It will probably take some pump priming at first but if the nodes are close enough and strong enough it WILL work. I have never seen any kind of written plan, but it sure appears that Baltimore is trying to connect Hopkins Hospital, downtown, the prospering waterfront, and some smaller nodes together in East Baltimore. Sadly, West Baltimore (home of Freddy Grary, etc.) doesn't have much to connect.

This post made me think of a neighborhood activist that demanded about ten years ago that North Avenue and Charles Street remain completely run down in order that people living in the two big ghettos (East and West Baltimore) would be able to travel back and forth without being assaulted by signs of prosperity. Needless to say, nobody paid much attention and the Charles Street corridor continues to be slowly built out. Sadly, the activist (who was much loved) died too young from cancer. But at least he wasn't forced to see his worst fears come true.

I liked the thought about there not being enough money in town to create widespread rapid gentrification. That is certainly true here. To my great frustration, neither the pro or anti gentrification folks seem to understand that.

I suggest that community development folks bite off exactly as much as they can chew - which, of course, is impossible to know ahead of time. What works in Baltimore will probably work in Saint Louis and vice versa. The cities are demographic brothers in some ways.

They really are pretty similar. A couple of significant differences apart from obvious things like geography/coastal location:

1) Baltimore didn't fall into the "urban renewal" trap of the 50s-70s as much where entire neighborhoods were ripped down to the degree STL did. You can drive through parts of north city that are completely gone. They look like empty fields. Where 50 houses stood on a block, now there are 2...or even zero. Go to areas ofWe have something similar in areas that were gutted near the central corridor that were formerly African American (like Mill Creek Valley). Everything came down, and what came in to replace it didn't really fill things out. Lots of 70s looking office/campus type buildings with acres of parking lots and underutilized vacant lots.

2) Baltimore itself was built more densely in its common single family/small scale multi unit residential areas. We don't have many row homes, and once you get west of Jefferson (only a couple miles west of the river), the lots widen a lot too. It's very common to see single families and duplex/2 flats built on 35 foot wide lots that are pretty deep (125 or so). Most of your lots are 18-25 feet wide and they aren't as deep, so that means you pack in much greater housing density in your core neighborhoods. That difference only widens when you consider housing costs and how that plays into sfh vs. 2-flats. Your housing is much more expensive, so far fewer 2 flats have been converted to single families. I'll give you an example: I live in an old two flat that was gut rehabbed into a 3300 square foot, 2 story, single family in a core neighborhood that isn't posh, but definitely high on the list of neighborhoods to live in. We bought it not too long ago in the mid 300s. I'd probably have to spend 600-800K to get that in Baltimore. People can't really afford that, so my home there would probably be two 1650 sqft condos that each go for about as much as my house.

[edsg25]

Originally Posted by MUTGR

I've heard from another Baltimore transplant to STL how similar the cities are, both good and bad.

Maybe it's a Browns-turned-into-Orioles thing.

[MUTGR]

Originally Posted by edsg25

Maybe it's a Browns-turned-into-Orioles thing.

Good memory or knowledge of history. I sometimes forget about that connection.

I remember my Mom telling me a common old saying about St. Louis when she moved here in the late 40's after World War II - first in booze, first in shoes, and last in the American League. I had to look it up, but the Browns moved to Baltimore in '53, so they weren't around long after my Mom and Dad settled here. But the Browns had been here 50 years, which was news to me.

[pwduvall]

Originally Posted by Chicago76

They really are pretty similar. A couple of significant differences apart from obvious things like geography/coastal location:

1) Baltimore didn't fall into the "urban renewal" trap of the 50s-70s as much where entire neighborhoods were ripped down to the degree STL did. You can drive through parts of north city that are completely gone. They look like empty fields. Where 50 houses stood on a block, now there are 2...or even zero. Go to areas ofWe have something similar in areas that were gutted near the central corridor that were formerly African American (like Mill Creek Valley). Everything came down, and what came in to replace it didn't really fill things out. Lots of 70s looking office/campus type buildings with acres of parking lots and underutilized vacant lots.

2) Baltimore itself was built more densely in its common single family/small scale multi unit residential areas. We don't have many row homes, and once you get west of Jefferson (only a couple miles west of the river), the lots widen a lot too. It's very common to see single families and duplex/2 flats built on 35 foot wide lots that are pretty deep (125 or so). Most of your lots are 18-25 feet wide and they aren't as deep, so that means you pack in much greater housing density in your core neighborhoods. That difference only widens when you consider housing costs and how that plays into sfh vs. 2-flats. Your housing is much more expensive, so far fewer 2 flats have been converted to single families. I'll give you an example: I live in an old two flat that was gut rehabbed into a 3300 square foot, 2 story, single family in a core neighborhood that isn't posh, but definitely high on the list of neighborhoods to live in. We bought it not too long ago in the mid 300s. I'd probably have to spend 600-800K to get that in Baltimore. People can't really afford that, so my home there would probably be two 1650 sqft condos that each go for about as much as my house.

I'm sure that Baltimore is more expesnsive that St. Louis but you can get a lot of house in the $400K-$600K range in North Baltimore. Like this: https://www.redfin.com/MD/Baltimore/.../home/10852607 or this:
https://www.redfin.com/MD/Baltimore/...home/142955221 Here is a semi-detached on the edge of Roland Park for $349K : https://www.redfin.com/MD/Baltimore/.../home/11155163 Two of those would be pretty pricey but, I doubt if anybody would even think about joining them together.

[raisins99]

Just popping in to say that St. Louis has impressed me. I was expecting a small ugly city and instead it seems like a large and booming metro area. Perhaps it's not large or booming, but it looks like it is. I think the massiveness of the highway system here is really shocking for someone who didn't research much about the city before arriving. There are also a lot of updates in traffic engineering so it looks like the metro has really put in a lot of thought in how traffic patterns will change and alter over time.

I had no intention of stopping here, just passing through on my way to find something and figured I could just grab a picture of the arch through the car window. I don't even like cities, they are very difficult for me to handle. But I was so impressed while driving through that I stopped and have now stayed two days. This is a different type of city, not at all what I expected. I'm considering checking out the more rural areas around St. Louis as places to settle down.

Well done STL!

[STLCityMike]

Originally Posted by raisins99

Just popping in to say that St. Louis has impressed me. I was expecting a small ugly city and instead it seems like a large and booming metro area. Perhaps it's not large or booming, but it looks like it is. I think the massiveness of the highway system here is really shocking for someone who didn't research much about the city before arriving. There are also a lot of updates in traffic engineering so it looks like the metro has really put in a lot of thought in how traffic patterns will change and alter over time.

I had no intention of stopping here, just passing through on my way to find something and figured I could just grab a picture of the arch through the car window. I don't even like cities, they are very difficult for me to handle. But I was so impressed while driving through that I stopped and have now stayed two days. This is a different type of city, not at all what I expected. I'm considering checking out the more rural areas around St. Louis as places to settle down.

Well done STL!

Thank you for the positive feedback!

[Mezter]

I was just thinking about this before coming onto this forum. Looking around St.Louis on Google Maps, it kinda seems weird that this was once one of the USA's most important/largest cities. Downtown just looks so small. Many areas around the city seem to make up for it though. Definitely doesn't look like a small city.

[chicagobear]

Originally Posted by Mezter

I was just thinking about this before coming onto this forum. Looking around St.Louis on Google Maps, it kinda seems weird that this was once one of the USA's most important/largest cities. Downtown just looks so small. Many areas around the city seem to make up for it though. Definitely doesn't look like a small city.

It is not small but it sprawls with the population spread out. I always thought of it as sort of like Los Angeles without a real core.

[glamatomic]

Originally Posted by Mezter

I was just thinking about this before coming onto this forum. Looking around St.Louis on Google Maps, it kinda seems weird that this was once one of the USA's most important/largest cities. Downtown just looks so small. Many areas around the city seem to make up for it though. Definitely doesn't look like a small city.

I think part of the reason is due to the fact that instead of all of the major businesses and industries centering themselves downtown as they have traditionally done in other cities (and probably St. Louis at one point), everything has spread west.

If you look at a map of St. Louis again, and head 'west' from Downtown, you'll notice a lot of activity around both Wash U and SLU, and then once you reach Clayton (tge county seat), it is essentially a second mini 'downtown' of its own, with highrises, etc.

Head further west still, and you'll find many industries, including a large complex for Edward Jones, in Maryland Heights. It is definitely a suburban + industrial and commercial area but has a splattering of high rises. Over the Missouri and west again, places like Mastercard have set up shop in suburban O'Fallon.

Having a city and the businesses so spread out has pros and cons- biggest con is that with businesses building outside downtown, downtown STL is comparatively dead compared to other cities around the world.

A pro is that it is probably one of the reasons traffic to downtown STL can be slow in a short peak hour, but isn't as excruciating as other cities (a fact which also has to do with our superior system of interstates).

[PerseusVeil]

Originally Posted by Mezter

I was just thinking about this before coming onto this forum. Looking around St.Louis on Google Maps, it kinda seems weird that this was once one of the USA's most important/largest cities. Downtown just looks so small. Many areas around the city seem to make up for it though. Definitely doesn't look like a small city.

Yes and no. I think when you consider the larger downtown area (meaning Downtown plus Downtown West) it's not that small, especially for a city that's roughly 60 sq miles, but it also doesn't come across as being that busy either in comparison to other similarly sized Midwestern cities.

One thing that has hurt St. Louis is that its downtown doesn't seem to have the same amount of pull that other cities' downtowns have. Downtown not only has to fight neighborhoods like the Central West End for jobs, but also suburbs like Clayton. Clayton has erected various office towers over the years, whereas phase II of Ballpark Village in downtown St. Louis, which just broke ground, contains the first new office tower that downtown is getting since 1989.