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I've lived in Tower Grove South for much of my life, including most of the past 13 years. I have three daughters: an 11-year-old, a 3-year-old, and a 3-month-old. It's a great place to live, with a diverse urban feel and tons of shops, restaurants, services, and activities to walk to, and a great place to have kids...
...IF you can figure out the school issue. Regular St. Louis public schools are, frankly, unacceptable to me for my kids. Some magnet schools are good if you can get into them (start with Kennard and Stix for younger kids). There are some promising things going on with charter schools. And although I'm not Catholic, I'm pretty happy with my 11-year-old daughter's school, St. Margaret of Scotland. But then, I don't have to pay for it (my ex's in-laws do...long story).
Don't let the school issue scare you off. It's a problem that can be solved. And for me, it's worth the trade-off of living in such a great neighborhood.
(PS. You asked about boundaries...by "Tower Grove South", I mean the area roughly bordered by Arsenal on the north, Utah on the south, Grand to the east, and Morganford to the west. The other neighborhoods around Tower Grove Park have their good points, too, but personally I would not be comfortable raising kids there at the moment.)
I work with a lady who lives in The Hill (or would that be "on" the Hill?) and said she wouldn't want to raise her kids anywhere else. She loves it. It was very inspiring for me.
The Hill is very family oriented. My child goes to school on the Hill and the kids who live there really seem happy with their freedom in the neighborhood. There are lots of little shops and pizza places. It hasn't changed much since the 1950s. The families have known each other for generations and look out for the kids.
The only problem with living on the Hill is actually finding a house. The residents don't ever move. They just keep adding on to their houses or buying the neighbors house, tearing it down and then building a really big place. If they do move or die, the really nice places are usually sold by word of mouth to another Hill family before they even come on the market. The places that do make it on the open market are usually very small, outdated, or radically overpriced. If you see a house you want come on the market on the Hill, take it fast!
The school issue isn't as much of a big deal on the Hill because most of the kids go to either the parish school or to the magnet schools right in the neighborhood or the next neighborhood over. Families get priority for the lottery into magnets schools in their neighborhood. There is also a well-regarded charter school located just south of the neighborhood. Even if the parents can't afford the parish school and lose all the lotteries into the magnet and charter schools (highly unlikely), then the zoned public neighborhood elementary/middle school is an OK place to wait until the next lottery. It is even racially integrated (half Caucasian/half minority), which is very rare for a non-magnet public school in the city.
Thanks everyone. The school issue is the biggest for me. Financially I've been trying to figure out if it's worth it to pay for private school and live in the city, or just try webster or kirkwood and have the option of public school. After looking around online and driving around for a weekend my instincts are that Tower Grove, shaw, crompton heights, Hill and CWE areas are just going to fit our family's personality and lifestyle so much better. I am relieved to find that families are happy in these neighborhoods and that amenities such as parks and city playgrounds are available.
I'm assuming that most of the areas mentioned above are safe and that walking around and riding a bike on the sidewalk are reasonable expectations? Or do we need to go to the park for that? I've been a city dweller most of my adult life, so the idea of a "transitional" neighborhood is ok, as long as it's relatively safe. Are there any areas/streets with the neighborhoods mentioned that I should focus on or avoid when looking at real estate? It's challenging not knowing the area.
I think you'll be happy and fine in any of those neighborhoods, no need to avoid anywhere in particular.
Schools are an important issue an you'll have to gauge that negative along with all the great positives of he city. Either way I hope you'll be very happy here!
Thanks everyone. The school issue is the biggest for me. Financially I've been trying to figure out if it's worth it to pay for private school and live in the city, or just try webster or kirkwood and have the option of public school. After looking around online and driving around for a weekend my instincts are that Tower Grove, shaw, crompton heights, Hill and CWE areas are just going to fit our family's personality and lifestyle so much better. I am relieved to find that families are happy in these neighborhoods and that amenities such as parks and city playgrounds are available.
I'm assuming that most of the areas mentioned above are safe and that walking around and riding a bike on the sidewalk are reasonable expectations? Or do we need to go to the park for that? I've been a city dweller most of my adult life, so the idea of a "transitional" neighborhood is ok, as long as it's relatively safe. Are there any areas/streets with the neighborhoods mentioned that I should focus on or avoid when looking at real estate? It's challenging not knowing the area.
Thanks again....so helpful and candid!!
All of those areas are relatively safe. The Hill is by far the safest. For the other areas, they are all good, but there are unsafe areas relatively close.
If you have the money, then the best streets in the Central West End are the private streets (Waterman Place, Portland Place, Lennox Place, Westmoreland Place, and Pershing Place). You will be within walking distance to the fun area with all the restaurants on Euclid, but the private streets are very calm and quiet... perfect for kids on bikes. If you go north of Westminster and Washington streets, then it quickly gets not so safe. I think some of the streets have private security since there are some really rough areas nearby.
The Compton Heights area is also very nice. I almost bought a house there, so I really analyzed the neighborhood a few years back. The winding streets of Longfellow and Hawthorne are very sedate and would be great for bike-riding. From what I hear, that area has a lot of kids. The areas east of Oregon or south of Shenandoah aren't as nice and should be analyzed block by block. Russell street is very nice all the way east to Jefferson and beyond.
Shaw can be hit and miss. Flora Place is the crown jewel of the neighborhood, so if you can buy on that street, do it. Flad street to the south is a close second. Flora Place has its own security patrol and is really blocked off from the side streets. Biking on that street is great, I have done it myself. Shaw and Detonty streets are the worst in the neighborhood.
Tower Grove East is hit and miss. The blocks directly east of Grand from Shenandoah to Grand are the best and have plenty of families. Halliday and Pestalozzi have gorgeous homes. If you go past one block east of Grand, it is block by block.
Tower Grove South is very popular for families. The area bounded by Arsenal on the north, Utah on the south, Grand on the east, and Gustine on the west is considered the prime area due to its great housing stock and proximity to all the restaurants on Grand. Utah Place is the best street in the neighborhood. The area from Arsenal on the north, Utah on the south, Gustine on the east, and Morganford on the west is considered very up and coming and probably will have the best deals anywhere in the neighborhoods your are considering. Morganford is getting a lot of new restaurants and shops so the neighborhood is seeing a lot of development. The 3900-4000 blocks of Hartford, Juniata, Connecticut, and Wyoming have great larger houses for bargain prices right now. You can definitely have kids ride bikes in the area, but the streets are busier than other areas, and some of the blocks have a harsh slope. Since Tower Grove Park is so close, most parents will take their kids to park instead. There are trails all over the park that are great for riding bikes without worrying about traffic.
You should also check out the area called St. Louis Hills. It has a huge park in the center of the neighborhood, Francis Park. On a map it is at the intersection of Donovan and Nottingham. Ames Place would also be good. It is the curvy streets of Waterman and Washington directly west of Skinker on the city line. That area is close to Forest Park, the Loop, and a Metrolink station. Most of the homes are in the University City school district, which isn't considered the best, but if you can get your kids into the honors program it is considered a great program.
The private school issue is a huge deal around here. If you are willing to send your kids to a Catholic or Lutheran school with inexpensive tuition, then you can get a lot more house for your money in the city than in Kirkwood or Webster and paying the extra tuition will save money in the long run. This area has a HUGE Catholic school system and a large Lutheran School system, so it isn't uncommon for non-religious families to send their kids to those schools because of their good academic reputations, even in areas with fabulous public schools. If you can't send your kid to a Catholic or Lutheran school, and would only consider public or a secular private independent school, then Kirkwood or Webster would probably be a better choice. The independent schools in this area generally run over $10,000. I think that the only exception is a relatively new school, the Soulard School. The magnet schools are a good option but if you lose the lottery, then you are in trouble if you live in the Central West End, Compton Heights, Shaw, and some areas of Tower Grove. If you live on the Hill or in St. Louis Hills, they have adequate (though not the best) neighborhood schools so you could wait out the year for the next lottery cycle.
I really love Kirkwood and Webster, especially the area right around their downtowns. I am a city person at heart, but Kirkwood and Webster are a close second. Any decision you make will be fine.
I really found all this info very helpful for my situation. My husband has already relocated to STL and is working downtown. I am still trying to sell our house before I join him. We have contemplated living in West County vs. the city. We would love to love in the city but are not sure if we can afford private school (3 kids). What is this lottery for charter schools all about?
There are a lot of charter schools in the city, but the magnet public schools are considered much stronger academically. Most of the charter schools are focused on educating the poverty-level minority population. They generally do a better job then the standard neighborhood school that the children were previously attending, mainly because they can kick out disruptive students. Because the magnet schools have to racially balanced, and there are always many more black applicants for the magnet schools then non-blacks (the desegregation classification system) except for the gifted schools, then a black student is much more likely to lose the magnet lottery then a non-black. The charter schools are often the black student's only realistic alternative to the failing neighborhood school. On the other hand, most charter schools are not going to be the first choice for a middle class family of any race.
St. Louis Charter School on Fyler (K-8) is the one charter school in the city that draws a significant number of middle class families. It is about half middle class, half poverty level. It is also racially mixed, with no one race predominating. Since there is a waiting list to get in, they hold lotteries for open spaces. I don't know when they are held, but it is a separate system from the magnet lottery.
There is a new charter school opening in Shaw next school year. It is affiliated with City Garden Montessori, a preschool that has been in Forest Park Southeast for some time. Right now it is only going to serve the neighborhoods of Shaw, Forest Park Southeast, and Botanical Heights. They are just starting out with grades K-2, and then add grades each year after that. They are holding their lottery soon. Shaw is about twenty years into the gentrification cycle, but Botanical Heights and Forest Park Southeast have just been hit with the wave of young middle class families. I predict that many of them are going to get on board with the new charter school and that it will help draw people to the area. Since they are starting out small, I think they will avoid some of the problems plaguing the next school I discuss.
The Imagine Academy of Environmental Science (K-8) opened last year and they have a fabulous new building. The reviews have been mixed. People have reported that the teachers and resources at the school are great, but the students have real issues. Bullying is a problem, and many of the kids came from schools where discipline wasn't enforced and the students are way behind academically. Then again, some of the families complaining had their kids in private schools beforehand, and maybe were used to the order and hard academics in those schools. The school isn't full yet, so any kid that enrolls gets in. Overall, the school looks very promising and the first year is always hard. I can't imagine having to deal with a huge brand new school with middle school kids. Next year, when every kid in the school isn't a new student and the students have friends and social structures in place, then it will probably be a good school. They seemed to start out too big too quickly. It took St. Louis Charter School many, many years to develop a good reputation and to attract a lot of middle class families. I hope this school can do the same.
There are only two charter high schools right now, one focused on construction careers and the other on failing students. Virtually all elementary charter graduates go back into the magnet high school system or go to a private high school. There are rumors that new charter high schools are going to be opening soon, but who knows.
Tnim, if you are concerned about paying for private school for three children, then ask about multi-child discounts. Most of the Catholic private schools offer them, and some schools have much better discounts than others. At some Catholic schools the second child is only $1,000 dollars or so, and the third child is basically free. Tower Grove Baptist also has discounts.
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