Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I am a little shocked that Carousel has only been there since 1990. The original mall was so run down that I just assumed it had been there for many years. Hopefully Destiny will be able to upkeep the building better than previously run.
If people would stop looking at what Destiny could have been and feeling bitter, they would appreciate what has been accomplished and what Syracuse now has. It is probably the best thing that has happened around here since I have been here....even if it isn't what people expected.
To be honest, I'm glad it is downsized. I'm looking forward to what may happen with the Inner Harbor, as that could really bring things to another level around here.
I think the issue with Carousel Center staying clean has to do with the fact it pretty much became the area mall. Meaning so many people just went there and the staff probably couldn't keep up.
Gotcha. I'll def check it out at some point since I've never been to a place like that before. Still got awhile, they're not opening until sometime next year
Looks like they're also opening up another one in Crossgates Mall, Albany
Finally a new tenant I like and will visit. The fact that the same restaurant is opening up at Congel's Albany area mall without any tax incentives, however, further supports the theory that the expanded mall will not pull people from a wide geographic radius and the availability of an overly generous PILOT was not a deciding factor in whether these mid market retailers would establish an operation in CNY. If you look at the existing tenants at Congel's other regional malls in Rockland County, Buffalo, and Albany, you'll notice almost all of the new, non-outlet tenants announced for Carousel (with some exceptions) already had or are planning locations in those malls. For the most part, Congel already had a relationship with most of these retailers and there is nothing "cutting edge" or unique about the stores he recruited to Carousel. I also wonder if the lack of destination worthy and upscale anchor tenants is partly due to Scott Congel's plan to redevelop a nearly vacant mall in the depressed Rochester suburb of Irondequoit. Bob Congel's son Scott receieved an equally generous incentive package from Irondequoit and the Monroe County IDA in exchange for simliarly grandoise promises to recruit high end retailers like Nordstrom and bring in retailers that do not have existing stores in upstate New York. After three or more years of inaction, Scott is feeling the pressure from local government officials in Rochester. He even requested assistance from Albany for a TIF district encompassing the mall property that would produce upfront payments to Congel equaling the estimated future revenues generated by a project that will likely never come to fruition.
In many ways, this sounds very similiar to Bobby Con-Slob-Gel's plans for Destiny in the 2000s. Obviously both cities cannot support equally ambitious projects and Congel's daughter lives in the Rochester suburb of Pittsford. Her brother Scott wants to establish his own retail empire and separate himself from his father although he is using the same, sleazy playbook perfected by pops. Both siblings know their family is hated in Syracuse. On the surface, it would appear it is in their best interest for Carousel to have mediocre tenants that would not pull shoppers from Rochester or Buffalo. This way Carousel would not cannibalize discretionary income and buying power from residents in WNY. The lack of high-end and destination worthy retailers at Carousel in particular and Syracuse in general, puts Scott Congel in a better position to recruit major retailers to his planned mall in Rochester. I know this is some conspiracy theory, but certainly well within reason when trying to understand the mind of the Congels.
The Rochester Democrat and Chronicle had an interesting article about the impact of the underwhelming Carousel Center expansion on malls in the Rochester area, namely Eastview Mall in Victor. Several tourism officials interviewed in Ontario and Seneca Counties agreed that the Eastview and Carousel malls target different demographics with Eastview appealing to more affluent shoppers.
On a somewhat related note, if people think the Carousel Center can get rowdy on Friday and Saturday nights they should check out the Palisades Center, Congel's other slum property in Rockland County. That place is a circus and an even bigger dump that attracts mostly poor, non-English speaking people from the Bronx, Yonkers and dumpy areas of Rockland County. It's not surprising that Congel is essentially copying the tenant mix of Palisades for the Carousel Expansion.
Good point about the comparison between Eastview and the Carousel expansion. It is almost like Congel was or is afraid to bring more upscale stores or restaurants, as if the people here wouldn't want that. It is like telling the people here to be happy that you got this expansion at all. With this said and I can't emphasize this enough, COR has a great opportunity to make something great out of the Inner Harbor. I just hope that they are listening.
Good point about the comparison between Eastview and the Carousel expansion. It is almost like Congel was or is afraid to bring more upscale stores or restaurants, as if the people here wouldn't want that. It is like telling the people here to be happy that you got this expansion at all. With this said and I can't emphasize this enough, COR has a great opportunity to make something great out of the Inner Harbor. I just hope that they are listening.
Agreed and I would also add he probably wants to protect his son's mall interests in Rochester. If Scotty Congel doesn't have to compete with his father's mall in Syracuse for upscale tenants or retailers that are unique to upstate New York he has a better shot at luring them to his abandoned mall in Irondequoit. Who knows how long the elder Congel will be around and if he plans to continue owning Carousel and his other interests. He recently put up for sale Bridgewater Place one of the only two remaining "trophy" properties he owns in Syracuse in addition to the Clinton Exchange downtown He has tried to sell his mall portfolio several times over the past decade and there have been no takers. Considering Bob Congel's limited longevity and his son's desire to redevelop the Rochester area mall, I don't think its far fetched to assume there were some discussions between both parties on tenant recruitment.
To be fair, the economy is still in terrible shape and retail sales are tepid, despite some modest improvement earlier in the year. Many retailers are not in an aggressive expansion mode, but given the right opportunity, location, price, and property there is leasing activity. Syracuse is not too small or poor of a market to attract stores like REI, Cabela's, LL Bean, Anthropologie, Crate & Barrel, Trader Joes, Costco, and several other major retailers.
I'm not very optimistic COR would have success at attracting higher-end or destination worthy stores for the Inner Harbor project. As far as commercial developers go and connections with top retailers, COR is small beans to put it bluntly. COR's holdings are mostly suburban style, big box shopping plazas in suburban and exurban areas of upstate New York. There aren't too many tenants in their shopping plazas that are above the standard run-of-the mill retailers. They did attract an LL Bean outlet to Towne Center at Fayetteville. A full-fledged LL Bean store at the Inner Harbor would be a major coup; almost like REI's flagship store in the city of Seattle.
I've been to perhaps a half dozen different rodizio places in Newark's Ironbound district, dined at Churrasaria Plataforma in Manhattan a few times (good but way overpriced due to their overhead costs,) have been to Texas de Brazil a fonce and to the San Antoinio Foga de Chao on many occasions. I like Fogo de Chao as much as or more than any of them and although $46.99 seems like a lot... it is worth it for a special occasion dinner if you're a carnivore and go there hungry. Yes I love rodizio! Salad bar is usually upscale with excellent quality items. Some rodizio restaurants bring the meats to each table in a specific order, starting with the cheapest and most filling cuts (e.g. chicken legs, smoked sausage etc.) before gradually moving to the more costly meats. You can turn down any meat they bring to the table but must wait through the rotation to get to the better ones... and then wait through the rotation again if you want more of a specific cut (e.g. lamb, sirloin or tenderloin.) In my Fogo de Chao experience this never happened - they brought meats top the table with incredible regularity and I was able to get the cuts of my preference more often without long waits. I hope this proves to be the case with Texas de Brazil (my visits there were so many years ago that I can't recall how they do it.)
Nice to see you back, Phaelon.
Fogo's the only such place I've been to, and that's also been my experience: tell the server what cut you'd like and he'll typically send someone to your table pretty quickly. Their service is excellent and the food is better still (if incredibly salty). Though Fogo is more of an expense-account place, they were occasionally Restaurant Week participants in Washington (cutting the ~$50 price tag by more than half) and their lunch price was right around $20. Needless to say, I'm not a stranger to that Penn Quarter location.
If this Texas place is half as good, I'll be very pleased.
That place is a circus and an even bigger dump that attracts mostly poor, non-English speaking people from the Bronx, Yonkers and dumpy areas of Rockland County. It's not surprising that Congel is essentially copying the tenant mix of Palisades for the Carousel Expansion.
What difference does it make that they're not English speakers (if that's even true)? That's a borderline bigoted remark.
Everyone's well aware that you get a kick out of name-calling and going on obnoxious rants, but this is even more unpleasant than your usual diatribes.
What difference does it make that they're not English speakers (if that's even true)? That's a borderline bigoted remark.
Everyone's well aware that you get a kick out of name-calling and going on obnoxious rants, but this is even more unpleasant than your usual diatribes.
Haha. I had an inkling that you were scouring my posts and laying the groundwork to pick a fight with me. The six month hiatus between your previous spat with me on this forum must have been getting the best of you. I should have known that my less than politically correct and poorly chosen words pushed you over the edge. It is somewhat ironic and very hypocritical that someone, such as yourself, who has a pretty solid track record on this forum of posting drivel that either explicitly or implicitly is tinged with invective toward people, organizations, and policies that you don't like or agree with would have the audacity to attack someone else's posting. Everyone on this forum is very familiar with your frequent ramblings expressing your many grievances with every development project proposed in CNY, downtown developers, demographic groups, expensive cars, consumer products, and just about everything else that ruffles your feathers. Whether it's people that live in large, newer homes, the configuration of streets, or the square footage of retail in a derelict downtown building that is slated to be redeveloped, you do more than your fair share to express your discontent and stir the pot. I certainly don't waste my time parsing words out of all of your posts that I don't agree with. If I did, we can safely assume the Syracuse page of city-data would have well over of 50,000 posts.
"I can add that 319 Salina is an interesting location - convenient to everywhere (and an easy 25-minute walk, not just a bus ride, away from University Hill), but with no shortage of riff-raff out front (at least for the time being). That said, it's a busy block and doesn't feel unsafe, per se. Just a bit, uh, aesthetically lacking in terms of the human component."
Hmm. You state there is "no shortage of riff-raff out front of 319 South Salina (at least for the time being)." Are you implying that those that ride the bus and frequent the 300 block are riff-raff? Is it because of the perceived color of their skin or socio-economic status, ClevelandPark? You expound upon your thoughts further by saying the neighborhood is "Just a bit, uh, aesthetically lacking in terms of the human component." Perhaps we can read into that comment as inferring that the people on that block don't meet your standards. Before accusing other people of "borderline bigotry," it would be wise to be more cognizant of the garbage that you post on this forum. Otherwise, you simply come across as a hypocrite.
Last edited by RollsRoyce; 08-02-2012 at 01:41 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Gotcha. I'll def check it out at some point since I've never been to a place like that before. Still got awhile, they're not opening until sometime next year
