No rail for Florida

[kyle19125]

Originally Posted by TriMT7

Do your own research and math. The proposition still stands. Public transportation and infrastructure is NOT supposed to and rarely makes a profit, or even pay for itself.

Exactly. Why would one expect a profit from public transportation? Is there a cost-return ratio attached to military hardware or bank bailouts? The disconnect is baffling.

[TriMT7]

Originally Posted by kyle19125

I have grown so tired of this argument. So since the state has held the practice of poor/zero zoning we're supposed to avoid broaching transit planning because there's too much sprawl? Brilliant way of thinking.

I'd rep you again if I could, but.... Exactly!

[Spring Hillian]

What world do you live in where employers give raises based on the price of gas or tomatoes for that matter? I don't know why you are stuck on a mis conception that everybody makes $9 an hour in FL. What administrative position pays $9 an hour that you know of? In what profession? Fast food workers with some time in the job make more than that.

When Chicago was becoming a city there weren't any cars at all. When Tampa started to grow people didn't want to be crammed into a city, they wanted space and suburbia. Look around the Chicago area and tell me if you don't think that is sprawl. Take a look around NYC and tell me if the hundreds of miles of density isn't sprawl.

Do you realize that NYC grew because of rail? The Bronx became populated AFTER the rail was installed. Queens expanded from farms and fields to neighborhoods AFTER the rail was installed. Same for Brooklyn.
Before the subways were built in the early 20th century there was NOTHING in the outlying areas of Brooklyn. Here the development is already in place, now it is time to provide mass transit services to those areas and plan for going beyond them for the future. Massive project.
Huge expenditures. But in the short and long term it is an answer to
a lot of ills including air pollution, dependence on oil, less need for new highways and roads which are costly to build and maintain as well without resolving the problems of single passenger cars to move people from Point A to Point B on a regular basis.


The fact of the matter is Tampa needs an internal light rail system for the future. Other means of transportation to support the flow of people to and from light rail would be conceived and implemented. It would not be "ok, there's the rail, good luck on getting to it". In NYC there are many places where you must take a bus to get to a subway as walking would not be possible.

The State as a whole needs a high speed rail system as well. Connecting the major cities of a state with HSR is simply the way to go. Cities along routes could improve their local infrastructure to accommodate the riders on these systems.

Don't even bring the cost of gas into this equation. Gasoline powered vehicles need to become a thing of the past. What is wrong with Liquid Natural Gas (LP) powered cars? Buses use LP and other alternative fuels in most cities and are not burning diesel or gasoline. The first all electric vehicles are finally hitting the market. Many years too late.

Originally Posted by algia

WITH the gas prices RISING they way they do, how do you expect Tampa or Orlando to afford more buses? don't you think we would be taxed more so these cities can afford all the maintenance and gas to run?


I love to see how you are quick to blame us for not wanting this with complete disregard to the actual technicalities that are NEEDED to operate such systems.


Florida WAGES don't allow for more tax raises, we are barely surviving with the existing taxes! EMPLOYERS here are OBLIVIOUS TO OFFERING RAISES...OK! They are OBLIVIOUS to keep up with the inflation! $3.55 in gas and the salary DID NOT CHANGE TO ACCOMMODATE THAT! administrative positions for example pay the same amount of money $9 an hour as they did in 2001 when gas was $1.18 In Fort Lauderdale, cheaper north of there.


You are comparing APPLES AND ORANGES, Chicago taxes it citizens a lot more, wages there are a lot higher to SUPPORT all those taxes, of course they have more buses, their public transportation was never killed as it was here, it was continued and improved and is daily maintained which costs A LOT OF MONEY! That the City of Chicago can afford to spend. Otherwise they will kill routes too. BUT Chicago was build with FOOT TRAFFIC in mind, There is NO FOOT traffic here as it is ANYWHERE NE of here! Please do visit and attempt to walk around here before insulting the residents of this area as if they don't know what they're talking about!

It was more important for Florida in the last 30 years to EXPAND on PASTURES, Than preserve downtown and keep citizens WITHIN the city limits!

[xbillyx]

Originally Posted by kyle19125

Exactly. Why would one expect a profit from public transportation? Is there a cost-return ratio attached to military hardware or bank bailouts? The disconnect is baffling.

Bingo.

[FloridaKash]

The example I was giving is that if you made $50K in DC and were able to make $50K in FL you would be waaay ahead of the game.

On the other hand if you made $33K moving to Florida you would live a similar lifestyle you were used to. Bascially, I am showing you can live a better lifestyle or take a it on income and live a similar lifestyle.

With that said, if I was making $50K in DC I, personally, wouldn't move to Florida for $33K. If I could transfer jobs and still make $50K, I think the decision would be a no brainer.

I have seen some places say groceries are 11% less in Tampa to 4% less in Tampa. Both percentage are very small when you consider grocery prices. If you spend $500/month n groceries we are talking about a $50 to $25 difference per month. Real bank busters. Put it on a smaller scale of an item at $2.50 and we're talking 25 cents at the most. Yes, groceries are pretty much the same. GENIUS!

Anyhow, back on topic. I am bummed that high speed rail is not coming to Florida. It would have taken awhile to gain traction, but once people got used to the idea and heard stories from others on how well it worked, ridership would have increased.

A lot of business travel within Florida and I am sure they would rather send their employees on high speed rail to other cities in FL instead of flying them. It's more cost effective for the business and is faster than flying (arrive 2 hours early at the airport, disembark the plane, luggage claim, delays, etc).

Looks like next time I go on a cruise or take a plane to the bahamas I am going to have to drive.... again. I suppose that's good for the toll roads though.

[Pragmaticus]

I don't blame him for KO-ing this. What is baffling to me is how I end up to be a miinority to think that he shouldn't be a Gov. in the first place, period! That's where it went all wrong! All the rest is semantic!

[pdxbray]

I live in Portland, OR, and it is beyond my comprehension that with gas at almost $4 a gallon and one of the worst public transportation systems in America, Florida would turn thumbs down the opportunity to walk into the 21st century. I'm sorry, it's idiotic. Business moves where it can maximize employee productivity. How productive will Florida be as you sit on your freeways and can't move your people to and from work? Heck, NYC figured this one out in the beginning of the 1900s. Please people, leave politics out of it. Every first class city in the world has good public trans. I guess Florida wants to stay mediocre. You can thank the village idiot who is your Governor.

[Spring Hillian]

What is delaying you? If it's so much better in D.C. why do you punish yourself with living in FL? If I felt as strongly about it as you I'd be out of here in a heartbeat. Not everyone has CDD and HOA fees. 500 sq ft is a box. You have a family of 5 so you stated and I could not imagine having 5 people living in a 500 sq ft box.

Originally Posted by algia

They don't let me take photos at the grocery store, but if I could I could easily prove to you that the cost of food is the same!


We travel to DC quite a bit, so we kinda "noticed"!

I am laughing at the housing thing...by the time you're done with your taxes and CDD, HOA and homeowners, and sinkhole and car insurance, have you check that?...you have nothing left for savings!

Look, I come from Europe where my 500sqf house is more than sufficient. Because I have to many things to do OUTSIDE MY HOUSE that all I do is go to bed there and have breakfast!

You're right about one thing, life IS short and my question is why spend it in your home all of it watching TV!??? I miss seasons and having something to look forward too etc...I can't wait for us to move up north, you have no idea.

[xbillyx]

Originally Posted by pdxbray

I live in Portland, OR, and it is beyond my comprehension that with gas at almost $4 a gallon and one of the worst public transportation systems in America, Florida would turn thumbs down the opportunity to walk into the 21st century. I'm sorry, it's idiotic. Business moves where it can maximize employee productivity. How productive will Florida be as you sit on your freeways and can't move your people to and from work? Heck, NYC figured this one out in the beginning of the 1900s. Please people, leave politics out of it. Every first class city in the world has good public trans. I guess Florida wants to stay mediocre. You can thank the village idiot who is your Governor.

Sad, but true.

[Spring Hillian]

Great points. Some people just don't get the idea. Thinking the higher the salary you get the better off you are is ridiculous and that the price of food is the same here as the N.E. is ridiculous.

I love it when my NYC friends tell me of their 6 figure salaries and then we talk about the city tax, the state tax, the property taxes, the tolls, car insurance rates, heating oil costs, travel hassle in winter and then those 6 figure salaries don't sound too good.

For instance: In NY State your tax rate on every dollar of income earned is 6.85%. , NYC income tax on $100k is $3,071 plus 3.648%. That's over $13,000.00 in income tax on $100,000.00 They pay about $12k a year in property taxes on their homes. The sales tax on the already taxed income is 8.875 percent. That's potentially another $8k in taxes to be paid on the income. What have we got so far?? Almost $35,000 in taxes on $100,000.00 income. That knocks $100k down to $65K in a blink of an eye.


In VA its a little better.

If your taxable income is $90,000, your tax is $720 + 5.75% of the amount over $17,000. This equals $720 + (.0575 x $73,000) = $720 + $4,197.50 = $4,917.50 on your 90k salary.

Comparing DC cost of living to Tampa is:
If you make $100k in Tampa you will need $145k to make it in D.C.

Income Taxes in D.C. are 8.5 percent at the $40,001 level and above.
D.C. sales taxes depend on what you're buying.

Food prices are easily compared on line. Most major supermarkets have their advertising on line. I checked Publix (FL) vs. Waldbaums (NYC)
and found products more expensive there. I took two items I use everyday. Special K cereal is $2.50 a box at Publix and $4.29 in Walbaums. Same size box. A 31 ounce container of Maxwell House coffee is $6.99 in Publix. It is $13.49 in Waldbaums.

If someone wants to go North where it is so much better, good luck to them.



quote=TriMT7;18149733]Um... that's the point. A 50k salary in DC/VA goes as far as a 33k salary in Tampa based on costs of living.

I would have to make 30% more in NYC to maintain the same level of living that I have in West Palm Beach. For what I pay in a mortgage (including taxes and insurance!) for a 3br with pool 2 miles from the ocean and 1 mile from downtown, I'd have a shoebox in Manhattan. For what I pay here I could have a 5 bedroom on a couple acres of land somewhere in the mid-west. Different lifestyles. Cannot compare because geography and cities are not synonymous.[/quote]