High School English Teachers please read (pretty please). (masters degree, educator, complain)

[Ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by Momma_bear

Not without teaching it first. When I teach a new hand position in piano I teach it, students practice it. They have a chance to demonstrate it to me without the stress of a grade. THEN they are tested on it.

If that is different in English I would like to know that.



I think that if teachers use study guides they should be useful. Otherwise don't use them and leave the students on their own. But if the teacher requires the kids to complete one, grades it and tells the kids to study from it, he should use it. Otherwise, just don't use it.

Literature is not his thing. He is a good writer. But he should be able to muster up a B in English.

The only reason I use one is my students ask for them. I don't collect them or grade them. I also make it clear that they should look for details and reinforcing material in their notes and in the book. I do not owe it to them to give them a preview of the test, however, some kids get so overwhelmed that a study guide can help them focus. If they haven't been paying attention or doing other studying, they'll only pull about a C using the quide because my guide is a general overview and does not contain specific answers.

[NHartphotog]

Transfer him to a different class. The change can't hurt. Also tell the principal what the teacher is doing and ask him to interview other students in the class to see if this is their perception.

A teacher who quizzes students on material not yet learned is one of those sad few who think they need to build their self-esteem by "proving" they know more than the student. I had only one in my college career, and that teacher (luckily only an adjunct) was fired after that semester, when all the students pointed out the same problem.

[Ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by NHartphotog

Transfer him to a different class. The change can't hurt. Also tell the principal what the teacher is doing and ask him to interview other students in the class to see if this is their perception.

A teacher who quizzes students on material not yet learned is one of those sad few who think they need to build their self-esteem by "proving" they know more than the student. I had only one in my college career, and that teacher (luckily only an adjunct) was fired after that semester, when all the students pointed out the same problem.

I disagree. There is nothing wrong with reading quizzes. It's a good way to make sure kids actually read the material.

How do you propose the teacher insure kids actually do the reading? My experience with reading quizzes is that they are basic and easy to pass if you actually did the reading. I haven't used them yet but I've toyed with the idea. I'm using reading notes now. My students have to get their notes checked off the day they are due for full credit. They can still do them late for half credit but it's a good chunk of their homework grade.

[toobusytoday]

Momma_Bear, My only surprise that your son hasn't had a pop quiz in English before this. Our kids get a similar quiz in the first week of school on their summer reading books. They all have to read from 4-6 books over the summer and they are tested on one of them and it's random as to which book it is. It's really just to see if they actually read the books. I feel for your son, but it's not unusual.

[Charles Wallace]

Originally Posted by Momma_bear

I have a son who is a junior in high school. He is taking English III H. English has always been his most difficult subject. Freshman year he had a B both semesters, sophmore year he had an A. He worked hard both years.

This year he has been having an exceptionally difficult year. He wound up with a C in English for the first quarter while getting an A in his other 5 classes. He called me at lunch and he was really upset because he thought he did ok on the last test but he got a 70. He said that he used the study guide that they went over in class and that very few of the questions pertained to the information in the study guide. During that conversation he relayed to me that they had a pop quiz today on the material they read over the weekend (Cold Mountain).

I have requested a conference with the teacher. I am a music teacher (not currently teaching) and I am a little shocked to hear that the kids are being quizzed on material that has not yet been taught and that study guides are being used but the kids are tested on different material.

Pardon me if I am misreading this communication, but in what way do you not find it valid to have a pop quiz over material students were supposed to have read? This is a time-honored method of ensuring students have read the material. Usually quizzes of this nature test superficial-level reading, e.g., "What was the name of Holden Caulfield's sister?" -- that is, questions which do NOT require any teaching or in-depth discussion to answer. Not having seen your child's quiz, I obviously cannot speak to the difficulty level of the questions; however, I find no fault whatsoever in giving a pop quiz over the material assigned over the weekend. In fact, I am surprised at your surprise.

Secondly, I am concerned about the fact that you are apparently relying not on any objective data, but on your son's word alone. Would it not be more appropriate -- certainly before you (potentially) embarrass yourself in a conference to see the study guide, see the test, and compare whether or not students are truly being tested on different material? Again, just to be obvious, since I have seen neither the study guide nor the test, I cannot be sure -- but like Reagan, I believe one should "trust, but verify." At the very least, ensure you have your facts straight and see both the study guide and test.

Is this common practice in English classes? When I test students it is always based on material that I have already taught in class, not new material. Simply asking students to read something is not teaching them anything.

It is teaching them the following:
1. To read actively, taking notes or keeping track of important events
2. To take appropriate responsibility as students for keeping up with assigned reading
3. To think critically as they read, actively looking for motifs, themes, symbolism, and characterization on which they might potentially be tested

In my world I ask students to read things so they are prepared for the lesson I will be teaching. Sometimes I even give them a list of questions that they should answer from the reading (not always for a grade but so they are ready for class). I would never dream of asking students to read something and then giving them a quiz before I reviewed the material.
In addition, is it common for English teachers to use study guides to prepare students for tests and then use different content for the test?

Again, notice the assumption inherent in your thinking? Before you jump to this conclusion, I would at the very least see the study guide and test to determine whether or not this assumption happened to be accurate.

When I prepare a study guide for a test, I usually use the study guide to write my test. There may be things on the study guide that are not on the test, but there should not be anything on the test that isn't covered on the study guide.

Frankly, I think students should be grateful if teachers provide them any kind of study guide, particularly since I believe it should logically be the students' responsibility to prepare their own study guides.

I don't want to speak to the teacher about these things if they are things that are done commonly. My son is a good student and he is really upset with this class. I need to meet with the teacher and help my son be successful in this class.

Quite honestly, I do not believe you have a sufficient reason to be upset. It sounds like your son, from what you are describing, has average abilities in English. Not surprisingly, he is getting an average grade in English. Particularly now that he has advanced to junior year, this is where a great deal of "fluff grades" almost inevitably disappear as students encounter college-preparatory texts and work. When students' grades are no longer inflated by essentially meaningless projects or under-challenging material, they tend to drop.

You know the real people you should direct your anger toward? His freshman and sophomore teachers.

[Charles Wallace]

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

If you can't do what's on my study guide, you don't deserve to pass. If you can't do more than what is on my study guide, you don't deserve an A in my class. It is not my job to make A's easy for my students so I don't. If all you do is study my study guide (and too many students do only this much), you'll pass but I'm not handing out A's to kids who don't show more initiative than that.

Piggybacking on this...

Particularly in honors classes, students in almost any subject need to go beyond memorization. Specifically, they need to synthesize and apply the information. Here's a concrete representation of the difference.

Easy class question:

1. Define "metaphor."

Regular class question:

1. Is the figure of speech in the following line a metaphor or a simile? Explain your reasoning in a brief sentence with examples.

Honors class question:

1. Identify any figures of speech in the following poem and discuss the ways in which those figures of speech explore or dramatize the author's central theme.

In short, I can provide a study guide for the first two questions... but only someone with a deep understanding of the subject matter can answer the third question. That's the difference between "honors student" and "hard worker." Very often, hard workers find that they've hit the wall around junior year for precisely this reason: hard work won't help you much beyond question #2. Obviously, you won't get to question #3 without the hard work too...but it's not enough all by itself.

[captain_hug99]

I agree with some previous posters, there is a difference between quizzing on a reading to test whether the reading was completed vs. quizzing on brand new unlearned material or in depth analysis of characters.

I'm also a music teacher, I give my band students homework all the time that I haven't explicitly taught. For example, my beginning band students have learned five notes so far, they know quarter, half, and whole notes. I've taught them the process of practicing. For homework, I give them a brand new piece that I haven't explicitly taught because I want them to figure it out and practice at home. I will quiz them on that piece. However, I would not expect them to teach themselves a brand new note or rhythm without me.

Your child knows how to read, take notes, etc... He should have done fairly well on the quiz if he read the material for retention.

[Momma_bear]

Originally Posted by Mar0

Teachers give out quizzes often to make sure that the students are actually reading the book. I recall having quite a few such assignments and generally these quizzes were not difficult but more fact based.

Just saying, if you son is not as strong in English, perhaps he shouldn't be in an honors class?

He has been in this school since 6th grade and has always been in honors English. He got As every year except his freshman year when he got Bs. He was recommended for AP English but decided not to take it as he doesn't really like English and he already had 2 AP classes. I don't think that all of a sudden in his 6th year at the same school he would have to drop out of the honors level.

[Momma_bear]

Originally Posted by golfgal

But you are teaching something new if you are teaching a new hand position. If it is just a scale, for a junior in high school, they KNOW how to read music and can learn the scale on their own over the weekend. Same thing with reading a book. If he is a junior in high school and can't read a book on his own with out being taught how to read the book you have bigger issues on your hands. Don't you require your students to do site reading of new music? That is a pretty important concept in music. That would be similar to assigning a few chapters in a book on a Friday and having a quiz on those chapters on Monday. I would EXPECT to see this done in an advanced English class quite honestly. Our kids have quizzes over reading material in English and History almost every day. They have pop quizzes in math over homework, same in science.

Study guides ARE useful but the test should NOT be a regurgitation of the guide. That isn't teaching how to study, that is teaching how to memorize.

You are also forgetting the golden rule of teaching, don't believe everything your child says until you have a chance to talk to the teacher. Your son SAID the test was nothing like the study guide but maybe he just didn't study and that is his excuse??

I don't believe everything he says but he is a very good student and he usually studies every night after football practice for a pretty long time. Plus he does schoolwork for much of the day on Sunday. I find it difficult to believe that he would study for 5 classes and not the other.

It's not like he stopped studying for all his classes or that his overall performance in school has gone way down. He is taking 2 AP and 4 Honors classes and he has 5 As and a C. Something is not right in this class. I am not saying it's the teacher's fault but something is not right.

I do not see the value in testing something that was not taught in class.

[Momma_bear]

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

I do not think I owe it to my students to disclose everything on a test. In college, they won't get a study guide at all.

NOT TRUE. Many college professors publish study guides. I don't think anyone owes it to their students to use one (his Chemistry teacher does not) but if there is one it should be useful to students. When I taught I did not use study guides. My students had to use their notes and books to study for tests.