Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education > Teaching
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 05-03-2013, 09:18 PM
 
26 posts, read 56,572 times
Reputation: 27

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by toobusytoday View Post
In our HS and MS, the coaches are as likely to be an English, Math or Science teacher. It never occurred to me that a SS teacher was normally a coach. That IS pretty weird.
Huh. Is this just a Midwestern thing?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-03-2013, 09:21 PM
 
Location: Free State of Texas
20,440 posts, read 12,786,094 times
Reputation: 2497
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
What you mean is "that's a huge change from the way things have been done for a long time". But if we went back fifty years, we'd see tons of other stuff that has changed in the way schools are structured and operate. Why is this particular element sacrosanct? Admittedly more of those changes have happened in the younger grades; but doesn't that mean high schools are even more overdue for change?

I have to think this change will come about eventually, especially given that other countries don't operate this way. When it finally does, it won't be long before people look back on the "teacher" hired mainly to coach sports as being almost inconceivable, it is so contrary to the essential nature of what the education system is supposed to be for.

At the very least, I could easily see lawsuits eventually forcing schools to stop these kinds of discriminatory hiring practices. It would also be nice to see history and social science departments at the university level realise that this (along with the heavy focus on math, science, and reading) is an existential threat to the credibility of their fields, and try to exert some pressure in terms of boosting the rigour of their subjects at the secondary level.
Perhaps you're right. Whether this will happen soon enough for your wife to enjoy a long career teaching social studies is unlikely, imo. I feel your (and your wife's) pain.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-03-2013, 09:28 PM
 
26 posts, read 56,572 times
Reputation: 27
Right, agreed.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-03-2013, 11:56 PM
 
2,309 posts, read 3,850,135 times
Reputation: 2250
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
It was a stereotype back when I was growing up, but I would have liked to think that we had gotten past that hoary old idea in the 21st century. Instead, my wife got a secondary education/social studies master's degree after getting a master's in sociology, and discovered that schools were explicitly linking social studies teaching positions with coaching. I just couldn't believe this was even legal (it seems vaguely sexist); and it certainly cannot be what those who carry the torch of the social sciences at the university level want their field to be associated with.

Not that I'm a sports hater--in fact, I'm a fanatic about tennis and football, and don't mind basketball either--but the implication is that SS is sort of a blowoff, not anything academically serious, so something you just pass off to the coach. And then if someone with real SS credentials wants to actually teach it in a serious way, but does not happen to have an interest and/or aptitude for coaching, forget it.

Not only do I feel that it is wrong for schools to orient their hiring this way, I also think that so long as this is the case, university education departments should warn their students that if they go for a secondary social studies certificate but are not oriented toward coaching, they are likely to be heading for a dead-end careerwise.

I graduated from high school in Ohio in '99 and at that time at my school there were I want to say 10 social studies teachers in the dept of which only 3 or 4 coached an athletic program.

Whoever said they associated coaches with english teaching jobs is living on mars. In my 9 years of teaching I've only ever known or met 1 coach who taught English and he taught primarily low level sections. teaching english and coaching does NOT mesh well considering the time requirements for both jobs.

I majored in History (BA) and Social Studies Edu (BEd) in college primarily out of an interest in history and social studies. I initially had notions of going to law school but decided against it mid way through. I did begin getting into coaching immediately after high school working with a local summer baseball team. It's funny because when I was student teaching in the fall of 2003 of the 7 of us in my cohort i was the only one with any athletic background playing or coaching and not to be sexist but i was one of only 2 males in the cohort.

I now teach US History and coach 3 years sports year round.

In my dept there are 12 of us at my school.

of those 12....

1 - female who teaches AP and IB Psych / no coaching
2 - male who teaches global studies 1 and us history / coaches football and track
3 - male who teaches AP US History / use to coach boys cross country
4 - male who teaches Govt / Econ / does not coach / but is our dept head
5 - male who teaches Psych / use to coach years ago but hasn't in about 15 years he said
6 - female who teaches AP Human Geo and Law Edu / no coaching
7 - male who teaches global studies 1, global studies 2 and AP Human Geo / coaches boys lacrosse
8 - male who teaches global studies 1 and us history / coaches football
9 - male who teaches global studies 1 / use to coach football but no more
10 - male who teaches american civil war class and drivers edu / head boys basketball coach
11 - female who teaches global studies 2 and sociology / no coaching
12 - ME - teaches US History / coaches swimming, wrestling and track

there are 3 females, none of them coach. Our athletic director just so happens to be female and she puts a premium on hiring female coaches at least for female sports but she has very little say in the overall hiring process when it comes to teaching slots.

while social studies at my school as far as a dept goes does still rule the roost so to speak when it comes to coaching hires less than half of our dept is involved with athletics.

with all that being said I from time to time check out job boards around the state and in other states and places like oklahoma or texas yes you will find an above average amount of teaching jobs being linked to coaching. often these are jobs at rural small schools that need to fill both voids and it is financially efficient to do so.

I know in small town Ohio where I'm originally from it is imperative that the admins hire someone to fill both positions because it can be difficult to hire someone just to coach especially anybody of any quality when the salary is for a head coaching job going to range from $2,000 to $10,000.

In my experience it is easier to get hired in at a school with no coaching stipulations if that school has a solid base of coaches to begin with and doesn't need to use teaching jobs to attract coaches or vice versa and if that school is in a large metro area where the pool of athletic job applicants will be much more varied and diverse in their qualifications and skills.

in my experience admins like to kill as many birds with as few stones as possible. so if they have a chance to hire a teacher and a coach with one interview then they will do it.

many times admins make these stipulations because those veteran teachers that are already in house are no longer interested in doing these other school related activities. I know my school has a very difficult time keeping anyone who wants to do student government as an adviser. In fact it got so bad that this year they didn't hire 1 person they simply a committee of 5 teachers if they would work together to run SGA.

Hiring coaching jobs at some schools and in some sports can be a pain as well. AD's don't always receive dozens of applications for every sport (except football, although most of those are delusional dads who play way too much Madden on the weekends and they have an amazing playbook to share). I know my school last year needed to hire a girls volleyball coach. Our girls vball program the last few years has been very good, not state good but regionally pretty good. we had ZERO applicants. my AD had to go back to the old coach and ask if there was anything she could do to get her to come back. My AD eventually talked our girls basketball coach into doing it but my point remains the same. Hiring for coaching jobs can sometimes become a more difficult task than hiring teachers. So building principals do put a premium on those teaching applicants who happen to be able to coach or have willingness to coach.

Those who are reaching for the sexist button are doing just that reaching. and reaching hard to be honest. Just like any other profession the more skill sets you bring to the table the more likely you are to a.) get a job and b.) hold on to that job.

If your only skill set is you teach and that's it then good luck and god bless you on your job hunt.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-04-2013, 09:52 AM
 
Location: Middle America
37,409 posts, read 53,569,981 times
Reputation: 53073
At my HS, from what I remember:

-Football: Coached by P.E. teacher
-Boys' Basketball: Social Studies/History teacher
-Girls' Basketball: woman who wasn't on the teaching faculty
-Cross Country: Math teacher
-Track: P.E. teacher
-Volleyball: P.E. teacher
-Baseball: P.E. teacher
-Girls' Softball: The head lunch lady (!) and a guy who wasn't on the teaching faculty tag teamed it
-Wrestling: P.E. teacher
-Tennis: a guy who wasn't on the teaching faculty


By far, most athletic coaches were P.E. teachers.

As a teacher, were I in a district where extra duties as needed was the name of the game, I'd be much more amenable to taking on advising duties for nonathletic clubs and extracurriculars, like sponsoring academic bowl or advising student government. Trust me that nobody would want me coaching.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-04-2013, 10:29 AM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,052 posts, read 84,472,986 times
Reputation: 27720
I saw an opening in a district near me for a support teacher/coach with emphasis on Math.
I'm not looking for a full time position but would apply for a part time one so I called up to inquire if the support teacher position was full time or part time as I have a Math 4-8 certification but zero coaching experience. Turns out they really want a football coach that can teach Math and yes, they would have considered part time.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-04-2013, 11:10 AM
 
Location: Philaburbia
41,959 posts, read 75,183,468 times
Reputation: 66916
What a ridiculous premise. All my social studies teachers were women, in an era where there were no girls' sports at the high school level.

Most of our coaches were math or gym teachers.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-04-2013, 01:09 PM
 
11,642 posts, read 23,907,231 times
Reputation: 12274
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
More fundamentally, schools should just hire coaches separately and not connect it to teaching at all.
A coaching stipend is only a few thousand dollars. Most coaches need a full time job in order to be able to coach.

My kids go to a private, college prep school and the coaches teach all sorts of different subjects. Some of the coaches aren't teachers at all but have other jobs at the school, like security. My son's current 8th grade literature teacher coaches JV girls basketball. His Civics teacher coaches junior high basketball. In the past my kids have had math teachers and who coaches. Our head wrestling coach is a security guard. The head librarian is the golf coach. Our former head football coach was an English teacher.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-04-2013, 02:33 PM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,052 posts, read 84,472,986 times
Reputation: 27720
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momma_bear View Post
A coaching stipend is only a few thousand dollars. Most coaches need a full time job in order to be able to coach.

My kids go to a private, college prep school and the coaches teach all sorts of different subjects. Some of the coaches aren't teachers at all but have other jobs at the school, like security. My son's current 8th grade literature teacher coaches JV girls basketball. His Civics teacher coaches junior high basketball. In the past my kids have had math teachers and who coaches. Our head wrestling coach is a security guard. The head librarian is the golf coach. Our former head football coach was an English teacher.
What I'm seeing though is that they want a coach who can teach, not a teacher that can coach.
In middle and high sports takes on a life of its own and is more than just competitive for fun.
It turns into chances at district and state championships.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-04-2013, 04:50 PM
 
26 posts, read 56,572 times
Reputation: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenvillebuckeye View Post
Those who are reaching for the sexist button are doing just that reaching. and reaching hard to be honest.
You say it's a reach, yet in your department it is a majority of men teaching, almost all of whom either currently coach or have coached in the past; while the minority of women do not and have not coached.

Quote:
Just like any other profession the more skill sets you bring to the table the more likely you are to a.) get a job and b.) hold on to that job.

If your only skill set is you teach and that's it then good luck and god bless you on your job hunt.
We are constantly being told that education in the U.S. needs to be improved (I think some of that is pretty overstated but that's another topic). Seems to me that getting the very best teachers would be a good start, without regard to whether they can do other stuff that has nothing to do with teaching. My wife graduated from an elite program with honours and the most sterling recommendations; the head of her MAE department expressed his frustration via email that (paraphrasing from memory) "if we can't place a top candidate like you, of all people, somewhere in the state,* something is really awry".

And she would be perfectly happy to oversee other activities like the ones she did in high school: speech/debate, student government, knowledge bowl (quiz bowl, whatever you call it locally), etc. But we have never seen a single posting where that is asked for. Just coaching.

*My wife was willing to work in the inner city, a tiny country town, or anything in between. She applied for literally every posting in the state of Missouri over a two year period.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education > Teaching

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top