Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
And please stop referring to itty-bitty Finland, a country where the entire population is only one TENTH the size of the United States student population and has little or no diversity, as something we should follow.
There's no "one size fits all" solution but to say the success of Finland (or other countries) is irrelevant is ridiculous. In fact Norway is similar to Finland in many respects but comparative studies have shown it isn't as successful as Finland - so they're doing something right.
Why isn't the approach of better training and more professional respect dismissed out of hand?
There's also the model of the Canadian province of Ontario, which the OECD did a report on as an example of successful education reform. It's also diverse and has lots of immigrants.
Let's frame it another way: there are no undergraduate professional programs in law and library science (OK there are some "legal studies" type undergrad degrees but they don't make lawyers). Many elementary teachers have stand alone bachelor's degrees, while many secondary teachers "double major" in secondary ed and their subject. Arthur Levine talks about what he calls the "Wild West" of teacher training:
Of course, conservatives and even a lot of liberals think the "solution" is union-bashing, more testing, charter schools, etc. and stuff like TFA where the idea is to throw a bunch of 23-year-olds with Ivy League degrees who see teaching as a stint to put on the resume before heading to law school. I do not back such schemes as these "reformers" don't seem to respect professional autonomy much and have a paucity of evidence to support their success.
I don't know how common the notion is that secondary teachers have a degree in secondary ed. As a matter of fact I don't know any high school teachers under the age of 50 with a degree in ed. Maybe it is regional thing but most here have a degree in their field, about half or so, have a masters most of those are in education.
Personally, my masters course in my field have been much more important to teaching well than those handful of education classes. All I needed as a high school teacher was a basic psych class, that covers learning styles, maybe some blooms taxonomy, and then a course practicing writing lesson plans to hit those styles. That would have been enough.
There's no "one size fits all" solution but to say the success of Finland (or other countries) is irrelevant is ridiculous. In fact Norway is similar to Finland in many respects but comparative studies have shown it isn't as successful as Finland - so they're doing something right.
Why isn't the approach of better training and more professional respect dismissed out of hand?
It isn't, it is the notion that better training means more education classes.
As for changing the notion of professional respect, maybe I missed it, but did you explain how you would address that?
Unlike professions like law and medicine, there is no consensus in how teachers are trained in the US. There are undergraduate programs, masters in teaching programs, combined 5-year undergrad/masters in teaching, alternative certification, etc. Many say there should be more training in academic subjects and less in the "art and science of teaching."
In Finland, an educational leader, teachers get master's degrees, with secondary teachers getting them in subjects such as history or chemistry, and elementary teachers taking masters programs that include child development, etc.?
Discuss...
Yes I believe so. This came up in a topic I made awhile ago and briefly in a topic a few weeks ago where some people believed that each state should have a few universities that are allowed to train teachers and act as professional schools. You can look at the US News Rankings of SoE and the top schools do spend a lot of time training the teachers with practicum experiences in addition to pedagogy and theory. Some even have exit evaluations. The problem is with the remaining SoE since there are 1500+ and the quality varies since schools of education are a huge money maker for universities.
Student teachers in Finnish schools do spend a year minimum in a practicum while also learning about pedagogy, theory, and doing research as well(I think this part is very important in helping them to develop their critical voice so as to influence policy)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonysam
And please stop referring to itty-bitty Finland, a country where the entire population is only one TENTH the size of the United States student population and has little or no diversity, as something we should follow.
Finland has the population of like 30 individual states in the US who by the way set their own policies and standards prior to this era. In it's major metro regions, immigrants from Africa, the Middle East, and Eastern Europe make up 1/12 of the total population and they arrive speaking a language that isn't Finnish.Nearly 1/6 of the population is considered low income and receives subsidies. My point is that Finland is comparable to a state in terms of population and it used to be one that was underperforming until it went through a series of progressive reforms in the 70s and early 90s. I do not believe teachers nor do I believe there is a crisis in education. I do believe there is a crisis in child poverty, racism, school segregation, turnover, lack funding in resources, and a general threat to roll back the gains we made on equity in education. I also believe we can look at countries on how to enact progressive reforms to professionalize teaching, because it is becoming increasingly deprofessionalized:
Something that someone said to me a while ago about Finnish education policies went something along the lines of this: You can't switch a Finnish and an American teacher between countries and expect to see improvements in an American classroom because of the policies in place.
It's as you said earlier, teachers are tested to death and now have to deal with accountability measures being pushed against them. Teachers in Finland don't have to deal with that. Here's a curriculum for example for grades 1-8:
It's brief and to the point(like the CC) because teachers are expected to write their own curriculum using that as a guide if they desire. There's no standardized testing(unlike the CC) and they are expected to do so because they are professionals and are treated as such. Contrast that to here where testing is heavily emphasized and in some school districts, your curriculum is written out to you as a script you have to follow.
No, teachers need to be content experts in addition to teachers. The teaching portion of our degrees is mostly common. Only my math and science methods courses were unique to my content.
That's how my degree was.
There was a core of education classes for all secondary ed teachers PLUS the content area courses required for the specific content area.
This original post is simply ridiculous. American teachers are trained and tested to DEATH.
Really? Other professions like medical doctors, research scientists, and other healthcare doctorates (DMD, PharmD, DPT, AuD, OD, PsychD) require at least 4 years of graduate schooling, sets of testing boards, multiple oral examinations, dissertation research, residency, post-docs, internships, externships, fellowships..many of them don't start their careers well into their 30s. Teachers do one year of student teaching, take only one certification test (unless they get certified in multiple states), and maybe a thesis if the particular masters program requires it. I'm not saying teaching is easy, but saying that teachers are trained and tested to death is an exaggeration especially compared to most healthcare professionals.
Back to the OP. I'm not saying teaching should require the extensive education of medicine and likewise, but I think American education schools need to have higher standards for prospective student admissions and have a more uniform curriculum and training. Like I stated in another post, I've seen nursing, occupational therapy, speech-language pathology, and even social work programs that require their students to have strong high school GPA, personal interviews, and volunteer work. Contrary, many teaching programs don't require this from what I've seen at my undergraduate college and what my mom has told me, who happens to be a special education teacher and adjunct professor.
In my neck of the woods, undergrad el. ed majors are already required to have a concentration in a separate area and then take ed classes. I believe that the public universities in Ohio also require this. Many take psych classes as their concentration, which of course is not going to add to subject content knowledge. A masters has been required in my state since the mid-70s. My mother trained to be a teacher many years ago and she majored in history and education.
As others said, you learn squat in courses. You learn by actually doing the job. I wish they had a longer practicum and less required education courses. The courses teach you theory and how to read experimental studies. They don't teach you how to tell a parent that their baby needs an evaluation or has social issues.
I don't know how common the notion is that secondary teachers have a degree in secondary ed. As a matter of fact I don't know any high school teachers under the age of 50 with a degree in ed. Maybe it is regional thing but most here have a degree in their field, about half or so, have a masters most of those are in education.
Personally, my masters course in my field have been much more important to teaching well than those handful of education classes. All I needed as a high school teacher was a basic psych class, that covers learning styles, maybe some blooms taxonomy, and then a course practicing writing lesson plans to hit those styles. That would have been enough.
I'm pretty sure that it's standard in PA for teachers to get a degree in education and dual major in the subject that they wish to teach. My daughter, undergrad in IL, has a degree in education and Sociology. She's been certified in IL, NY and PA. Her cert in IL was elementary and middle school and she taught middle school in PA, elementary in NY.
Moderator - Lehigh Valley, NEPA, Harrisburg, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Education and Colleges and Universities.
When I post in bold red, that is Moderator action and per the TOS can be discussed only via Direct Message.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
