Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The problem that I see is that good people do not go into teaching because they have to spend too much of the school day dealing with "social issues" and garbage NOT related to reading/wrighting/arithmatic. If I were to take a teaching job, my contract would have to come with a clause that gives ME the authority to kick anyone out of my class that I deemed unwilling to learn.
This isn't even a remote possibility. Districts nationwide are under Federal observation (Eric Holder) for suspension/expulsion data. The mantra is: "We can't teach kids who aren't in school". With that, students are kept in school no matter how badly they act. Drugs no longer mean expulsion. Maybe if they are caught selling them. Simple use, or carrying no longer warrants expulsion. Most behaviors that 5 years ago led to expulsion no longer do. It's a different world than most of us grew up in.
try giving the Book 'The deliberate dumbing down of America' written By Charlotte Thomson Iserbyt , She worked for our Government in the education or lack there of department, It's no accident a child in fifth grade today is half as smart as a child in the fifth grade of the fifty's ...
In fact I believe it can now be read on line free
This is how the book starts out in the foreward:
Quote:
Charlotte Iserbyt is to be greatly commended for having put together the most formidable and practical compilation of documentation describing the “deliberate dumbing down” of American children by their education system. Anyone interested in the truth will be shocked by the way American social engineers have systematically gone about destroying the intellect of millions of American children for the purpose of leading the American people into a socialist world government controlled by behavioral and social scientists.
Mrs. Iserbyt has also documented the gradual transformation of our once academically successful education system into one devoted to training children to become compliant human resources to be used by government and industry for their own purposes. This is how fascist-socialist societies train their children to become servants of their government masters.
The successful implementation of this new philosophy of education will spell the end of the American dream of individual freedom and opportunity. The government will plan your life for you, and unless you comply with government restrictions and regulations your ability to pursue a career of your own choice will be severely limited.
Any book that starts off that politically charged is not going to be a balanced read. It sounds like a propaganda piece for privatized education or homeschooling.
I remember the first time I heard that statement, I became offended because of the fact that there is an assumption that anyone who goes into teaching can' t do anything else. To add insult to injury, programs like Teach For America only hire college graduates who are high achieving, high scoring, with high GPAs (who could otherwise be working for corporate America) to teach in some of our toughest inner city schools. Many of those teachers are told that they are the great hope for those inner city kids since the teachers working with them weren't as smart as them to help those kids achieve.
Our past CA governor got into trouble for trying to recruit college grads to teach in CA, telling them that they could teach temporarily and then go into another profession.
Again, teachers don't get the respect we deserve because there is this assumption that we aren't working our butts off because half of our students in the USA aren't still proficient, without taking into consideration all of the other variables (single parent homes, drug babies, video games, babies having babies, and latchkey kids,) playing part in that equation.
What is your opinion regarding those who can do/those who can't teach?
I was a teacher, and I think ours is a profession with low self-esteem, because many people who are teachers actually do believe that saying. Sorry to say I do too, at least somewhat. I have found most teachers - not all, but most - to be plenty intelligent enough, but to have a kind of lack of independent thought. They just aren't that educated, and have never learned or been allowed to really think for themselves or question anything. They accept poor treatment from administrators and don't seem to expect anything better. They tow the line and pretend to love every stupid reform that is pushed by admin and never criticize or fight back in any way. So while I wouldn't say teachers are dumb, I do think they are not very creative thinkers, are used to being told what and how to do things, and aren't used to anyone actually expecting or allowing them to really use their brains. At least, the ones who do it for any length of time are like that - plenty of others come, see, and run (like me). But I guess my experience is pretty limited, and hopefully not every school district is like the one I worked in. However, with accountability and standardized testing today, it's hard to believe there could be any good public schools left out there.
This isn't even a remote possibility. Districts nationwide are under Federal observation (Eric Holder) for suspension/expulsion data. The mantra is: "We can't teach kids who aren't in school". With that, students are kept in school no matter how badly they act. Drugs no longer mean expulsion. Maybe if they are caught selling them. Simple use, or carrying no longer warrants expulsion. Most behaviors that 5 years ago led to expulsion no longer do. It's a different world than most of us grew up in.
I can't STAND that man, People hate obama, ok that's your prerogative, I hate Eric Holder...freakin' murderer that he is! Anyways, that's messed up, if kids are caught with drugs then they should be expelled.
I can't STAND that man, People hate obama, ok that's your prerogative, I hate Eric Holder...freakin' murderer that he is! Anyways, that's messed up, if kids are caught with drugs then they should be expelled.
Do tell, about the murderer remark. First time I've heard of it.
I hate the assumption that teachers are very under appreciated. I don't think anybody would argue that "those who can do/those who can't teach" applies to every single teacher, rather that perhaps its usually the case.
Regarding teachers asking for money, yeah its only natural. But when teachers are on TV complaining about not getting a raise and wanting better benefits when the rest of the nation (you know the tax payers) are getting pay cuts, benefit cuts or losing their jobs....it becomes a bit outrageous. I really do hope the tax payers put a sock in the teachers and unions mouth.
I wish someone would put a sock in YOUR mouth. Listen, teachers don't work "8 months" out of the year, they usually work most of the year though. And no they don't make 8000 dollars a month either. Jesus christ man, lay off whatever it is you are smoking! And if you got such a problem with the way teachers work or get paid, then quit whining and go be a teacher! If you are going to whine about it then it must be because you think it's not fair to you right? If that is not your cup of tea, then keep your mouth shut and do the only job that you can do. As for people losing their benefits, that's not MY problem. You want to work in business and the economy goes down, well guess what you lose your job, pay, promotions of whatever. Customers pay their salary, the public pays ours. If they or you don't like it, then teach your own damn kids, oh wait, most parents are not only NOT qualified, but they use school as an extension of baby day care because they can't even deal with their own freaking kids. Now that should tell you something!
I hate the assumption that teachers are very under appreciated. I don't think anybody would argue that "those who can do/those who can't teach" applies to every single teacher, rather that perhaps its usually the case.
Regarding teachers asking for money, yeah its only natural. But when teachers are on TV complaining about not getting a raise and wanting better benefits when the rest of the nation (you know the tax payers) are getting pay cuts, benefit cuts or losing their jobs....it becomes a bit outrageous. I really do hope the tax payers put a sock in the teachers and unions mouth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hindsight2020
First off, let's separate K-12 from college teaching, very different labor dynamics at play between these two work settings.
At least at the K-12 level, statistically people who go to the education majors are not, as a collective, the most academically adept or inclined. Get offended if you must, it's the truth. I personally know of the major changer who got tired of chugging through pre-law, the female who couldn't stand any kind of technical subject and figured out the portability (at the cost of salary) of the teaching job made it a no-brainer, the MRS degree chick who knew she wasn't gonna make any money teaching but that's what being hot and a teacher (or nurse to a lesser extent since they make primary breadwinner money) and having the husband be the primary bread winner is all about. Honestly, if somebody wants to argue these examples are not archetypes of the median flock of people who get into K-12 teaching you need to lift your head and look up.
It's a largely easy major to complete and it's a "volume major"; in essence since K-12 teaching is perceived to be a portable career it attracts and absorbs a large amount of people who would otherwise not pursue a 4 year degree at all. Actually I'll go further, those who can't hack nursing, go the teacher route. The demographics are identical and the only differentiation is honestly the willingness to put up with technical coursework and/or what expectations does the candidate have as it relates to where the above median income they desire is gonna come from. Politically correct? Of course not, but that's what it boils down to for the median ed major.
Granted, there's plenty of high academic achievers who choose to teach, but they recognize and understand that at the K-12 the career doesn't pay all that well as a median and is largely considered a secondary household income in a female-dominated labor force. In general, those who pursue a pharmacy phD or other career tracks that require long educational commitments or are highly technical in nature are tracks your median education major will never consider. Again, don't get me wrong, there's nothing inherently worthless about being a teacher, but to suggest the droves of people that flock to the degree every year do it out of an altruistic call to affect the lives of children is pure chaff. They do it because the opportunity cost of that pursuit versus not getting a degree at all (and forego the shot at a 'busy-bee' 30K-60K job) is just not that costly.I have friends who are teachers and they are well-rounded and smart individuals, but they admit it's just busy work.
Put in other words, absent the ability to manage a class full of children/teenagers, most technical majors can do a better and more proficient job at teaching a subject in the specific area than your median teacher. Here's where teachers get me fired up. If teachers were to then argue (as they often do) that the 'value added' comes not from being the best at teaching a subject, but rather from being more equipped to manage a learning setting with multiple children (proverbial developing minds or whatever the corporate buzz word of the month is at the schools), then they cannot expect to have the cake and eat it too when they are adjudicated as de facto baby sitters. Thence, the wage in a highly saturated field of baby sitters is justified in its present form. This of course throws teachers on a tizzy, but it really does boil down to that dichotomy. If I (an engineering graduate/post-graduate who taught at the college level) can do a better job at teaching math at all levels of K-12 but choose not to pursue a K-12 position because the pay is not worth my time, then I'm willing to concede you (the education major) are a better baby sitter than I am (better manager of a classroom) and that's why you're getting paid what you are, which in essence is the opportunity cost of every single parent choosing to subrogate the time taken to manage and educate their children at home for more lucrative pursuits versus spending their time doing it themselves at an economic loss. That's it. Altruistic motives and the like are not a median motivation or contributor to the reason why people go into K-12 teaching. If you're one of the few who did and honestly (remember, teachers are like Shawshank prison, they ALL swear they could be making 6 figures doing something else, after all we're ALL INNOCENT here you know?) pursued teaching for the love of making a difference while genuinely FOREGOING a more lucrative way of spending your time, then you shouldn't complain about being undercompensated, as you're doing it for a passion in life. I agree with you, one shouldn't have to starve in order to fulfill one's passion in life, but you're not alone in that dilema; pilots, artists, singers, all these professions have starving medians. You gotta pick your poison. Supply and demand.
If you're doing it for king and country, don't b$tch about the compensation, that I too agree, is worthless specially if you went in debt for that piece of paper, but if you're doing it for the same reason we're out there doing random professions (i.e. MONEY) then you have to look at it without emotional hang up and purely from an economic standpoint, which in the case of teachers is the opportunity cost of being someone else's baby sitter (manager if baby sitter is inflammatory to you), 'cause a specialist in the field could technically do a better job than the median teacher at actually teaching the subject but would bankrupt the district payroll if you were to get a non-children tolerant specialist for every subject the school needs to teach. simple economics is what its all about.
As to college, I'll leave it for another post. College education is a racket. Tenured professors are rent-seekers (which is par for the course, after all, aren't we all, as part of an American society that produces nothing?). They provide no valuable contributions to the field other than churning grants as the expense of the young and hungry (the graduate invisible adjuncts and assistant). The quality of teaching they provide the average undergraduate is poor to non-existent; they are the proverbial payroll swell. The whole education system at the college level is an extortion racket. I'd expand on it but I don't think it addresses the original question as I think it applies more to the K-12 crowd.
My $1.25
Uh, first thing you are an engineer, what do you know? Most technical people that I know can't even handle a decent and civilized conversation because they don't have "people skills" much less would know how to teach kids. As for it being a passion, yeah that's all fine and dandy, but if your passion is engineering, are you going to be ok with 35k for very long? I hardly doubt it.
Do tell, about the murderer remark. First time I've heard of it.
As far as I am concerned, he can say he didn't know anything about it, but he is responsible for the hispanics dying on the border and in mexico when they let those guns go for the operation fast and furious. Two border agents died and thousands of mexican citizens. All they(him and Obama) care about is black people. I'm sorry, american's come in all races and colors.
Any book that starts off that politically charged is not going to be a balanced read. It sounds like a propaganda piece for privatized education or homeschooling.
As far as Politics'' Left VS right BS, I cant be locked into 1 group Ever, Infact if im talking to someone and they throw out 'well the left did this or the right did such n such, I have to walk away, Because i know they know very little about the world we live in..Their controlled' owned even..
but if you read into Charlotte's book, she stole white Government papers showing the dumming down is and has been their goal for a loooong time, They do not want free thinkers' they want dumb ed down Bots they can control and they are succeeding....
The title of this thread is an insult and not worth commenting on at all.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
