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No, I am talking about looking at that teacher over a 5 year period with 5 different groups of students. In other words, what did he or she do with the group of students he or she had in 2004-05, 2005-06, 2006-07, 2007-08, and 2008-09. What percentage of students did he or she consistently move up or into proficiency. I hope that now makes sense. I can't see merit pay realistically working or being fair without the state or government looking at percentages of students who have improved consistently over a 5 year period.
At least we could see a trend, especially if one year that teacher had a class from hell, a very good class, an ok class, or a class with just low performing students. Either way, looking at what he or she has done with different groups of students over a 5 year period would be, in my opinion, a strong indicator that this teacher knows what he or she is doing and can effectively get kids over the hump no matter what type of class he or she is given or in some cases what grade level he or she has taught if his or her grade level was changed during that 5 year period.
My principal told me that she has looked at trends, and no matter what grade particular teachers have taught or what type of students that they received, that teacher was still able to have some of the highest test scores for his or her grade level. To me, that says that it's not the kids, but the teacher doing something pretty incredible in his or her classroom in order to be able to get kids to proficiency no matter what grade he or she teachers and no matter what type of students he or she receives.
But that's dependent, in large part on the quality of the teachers the students had before. How do you account for the fact that each group of students had different teachers? That each group of students is different?
I just finished my first year teaching. Passing rates on the state exams were up. However, I've been warned that next years students aren't the same caliber as the students I had this year and they expect passing rates to drop. Passing rates fluctuate year over year.
I also had some of the highest passing scores among students in my classes. That's because I taught physics which means I got some of the best students in the school.
Merit pay is a hot topic. Many seem to think it will solve what ails education (I have my own opinions here) but implementing is is problematic. If you were in charge, how would you determine which teachers deserve merit pay and which don't? How would you compare teachers (that's what merit pay really does)? How would you account for the fact children have multiple teachers and each influences outcomes? How would you account for demographic effects?
Teachers don't choose their students. They teach whatever kids are assigned by someone else to their classes.
In most other "merit pay" situations where individuals are given performance bonuses, they're based on the individual's performance. The exception might be professional sports coaches. But even there, poor performing underlings are quickly culled. Teachers can't remove underperforming kids from their classes.
In teaching, there'd be no fair, objective measure.
Merit pay sounds wonderful on the surface. In reality, kids come in a very wide spectrum of learning abilities. And the teacher has no control over that. Neither does anyone else. It's time for the public at large to acknowledge that education has its limits. No amount of effort or time or resources will make someone into something they aren't.
Merit pay is a hot topic. Many seem to think it will solve what ails education (I have my own opinions here) but implementing is is problematic. If you were in charge, how would you determine which teachers deserve merit pay and which don't? How would you compare teachers (that's what merit pay really does)? How would you account for the fact children have multiple teachers and each influences outcomes? How would you account for demographic effects?
The problem with merit pay is that administators would decide it. Teachers who "teach to the test" ( so the kids score high on standardized) would probably get brownie points for it. So would those who kiss the posterior of the boss ( not too fair either).
I taught 30 years. I never "taught to the test" just so kids got high scores. I just set my expectations higher for my class and taught the entire curriculum. I also was no kissup. My classes learned... but I bet some administrators wouldn't have given me any merit pay.
But that's dependent, in large part on the quality of the teachers the students had before. How do you account for the fact that each group of students had different teachers? That each group of students is different?
I just finished my first year teaching. Passing rates on the state exams were up. However, I've been warned that next years students aren't the same caliber as the students I had this year and they expect passing rates to drop. Passing rates fluctuate year over year.
I also had some of the highest passing scores among students in my classes. That's because I taught physics which means I got some of the best students in the school.
You make a very good point, but again, there have been teachers, regardless of their grade level, regardless of the type of teacher that their students previously had, were still able to consistently move their students up on state tests. This is what principal's like mine look at, and in some cases have moved ineffective teachers to lower grades where students aren't tested yet just to keep those ineffective teachers out of grades where test scores matter. I am not saying it's right, but when these exams determine whether or not your school becomes a program improvement school, especially under a particular principal's watch, then they are going to do what is necessary to keep their jobs as well.
Teachers don't choose their students. They teach whatever kids are assigned by someone else to their classes.
In most other "merit pay" situations where individuals are given performance bonuses, they're based on the individual's performance. The exception might be professional sports coaches. But even there, poor performing underlings are quickly culled. Teachers can't remove underperforming kids from their classes.
In teaching, there'd be no fair, objective measure.
Merit pay sounds wonderful on the surface. In reality, kids come in a very wide spectrum of learning abilities. And the teacher has no control over that. Neither does anyone else. It's time for the public at large to acknowledge that education has its limits. No amount of effort or time or resources will make someone into something they aren't.
I agree with you 100%, and that's been my point as well, how can we FAIRLY measure it when so many other variables play a part into why students do well or not on tests. Just like we can't use a one size fits all model for students, we can't use it for merit pay as well.
Just like we can't use a one size fits all model for students
But isn't that exactly the approach that the public schools take in most locales? It isn't effective, but it's the cheapest approach to processing mass quantities of kids. And for the majority of the public, I think they're satisfied with that, unfortunately.
Merit pay is a hot topic. Many seem to think it will solve what ails education (I have my own opinions here) but implementing is is problematic. If you were in charge, how would you determine which teachers deserve merit pay and which don't? How would you compare teachers (that's what merit pay really does)? How would you account for the fact children have multiple teachers and each influences outcomes? How would you account for demographic effects?
I don't see any really fair way to do it. K-12 public education is a team effort, comprised of at minimum three individuals-- teacher, student, and parent. Any of the three can, theoretically, totally screw up and be rescued (at least to a point) by the other two. There are years my children have had dreadful teachers and wretched schools, and still done well because I took responsibility and they were motivated to learn. Equally, there are times teachers have done backflips and students have failed. If we measure purely by student test performance, we get only a picture of which child has done well on a specific task on a specific day-- not a whole picture.
Personally, if I had a dog in the battle (which I really don't, being a homeschooler), I'd rather see open enrollment (as opposed to zoned schools) and more power in the hands of competent principals, along with an end to automatic tenure. None of which would be a cure-all (I don't believe such a thing exists), but which would help immeasurably in systems like the one I live in.
If you add up all the hours teachers work, it's close. It was not unusual for me to put in 80 hour work weeks.
Ivory, with respect, teachers are not only not unique in this, it is pretty much de riguer for most professionals in a salaried position.
Every profession has its pitfalls. Obstetricians get called out a 3AM, nurses take call and work half the weekends and holidays, fire fighters work 24 hour shifts. In my last position before retiring, I was on call 24/7 for two years, and at the facility which employed me a minimum of sixty hours a week (including summers and the Christmas holidays, ftr). It goes with the profession, and surely shouldn't come as a surprise to new grads at this point.
You have an issue with it, unionize. If your union has no issue with it, then either deal, or elect new union officials.
Ivory, with respect, teachers are not only not unique in this, it is pretty much de riguer for most professionals in a salaried position.
Every profession has its pitfalls. Obstetricians get called out a 3AM, nurses take call and work half the weekends and holidays, fire fighters work 24 hour shifts. In my last position before retiring, I was on call 24/7 for two years, and at the facility which employed me a minimum of sixty hours a week (including summers and the Christmas holidays, ftr). It goes with the profession, and surely shouldn't come as a surprise to new grads at this point.
You have an issue with it, unionize. If your union has no issue with it, then either deal, or elect new union officials.
Have you forgotten I was an engineer before I became a teacher? I've worked as a chemist, as a process engineer, a design engineer, a product engineer and a test engineer. I have never worked as long of hours as I do as a teacher without getting paid for the extra hours. I have never brought work home with me as I do now as a teacher. When I did work long hours (happened if production demanded it) I got paid for all the extra hours. Or at least I got comp time. They didn't pay overtime when I was in design engineering but I could track my hours and take time off later to compensate for having worked more hours earlier.
I think I'd have about a year in comp time by now if they allowed me to do this as a teacher
I know many professionally employed people and none work the hours I do as a teacher. My husband who is in IT doesn't work hours like I do. He does, sometimes, bring things home and he is on call all the time but it's rare for him to put in anywhere near 60 hours in a week. That was a slow week for me last year.
Have you forgotten I was an engineer before I became a teacher? I've worked as a chemist, as a process engineer, a design engineer, a product engineer and a test engineer. I have never worked as long of hours as I do as a teacher without getting paid for the extra hours. I have never brought work home with me as I do now as a teacher. When I did work long hours (happened if production demanded it) I got paid for all the extra hours. Or at least I got comp time. They didn't pay overtime when I was in design engineering but I could track my hours and take time off later to compensate for having worked more hours earlier.
I think I'd have about a year in comp time by now if they allowed me to do this as a teacher
I know many professionally employed people and none work the hours I do as a teacher. My husband who is in IT doesn't work hours like I do. He does, sometimes, bring things home and he is on call all the time but it's rare for him to put in anywhere near 60 hours in a week. That was a slow week for me last year.
Mercy, no, Ivory, after the other thread most of us have your CV memorized.
So you've been a chemist and an engineer. Your husband is, essentially...also an engineer of sorts.
Apparently, your inner circle includes no physicians, midwives, architects, hospital administrators, small business owners. You probably should get out more, meet more people.
By the way, for someone putting in all those hours, you're sure busy on CD.
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Merit pay for teachers
