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So I ask you... Do teachers really have a choice? Do you still "have a choice" if you cannot afford to have one?
Do teachers have a choice when they will be disciplined for expressing an opinion re:education that does not agree with District policy?
Good questions!
Yes, the choice is still there, but the real choice is wether or not the teacher is willing to deal with the consequences. For better or worse, most teachers ( and anyone else ) in a similar situation will usually choose not to make waves. Although not a pleasant one, it is still a choice.
I don't think the majority of individual teachers believe they are the only ones. The charge is led by unions and magnified multi fold by the fact that teacher salaries come from public coffers and that results in the inevitable annual or close to lobbying for higher salaries. Teachers are everywhere due to the nature of the profession. Directly or indirectly funding for salaries, benefits and the overall budget comes from all three levels of government so the lobbying occurs at all three levels. Again with over 2.8 million teachers that creates a broad base for lobbying and discussion.
This could well be true, and I think the unions are doing their members no favors by making them look like a bunch of whiners. The line that I heard from a teacher that made me the agriest over the years was "teaching is a 12 month job that you only get 9 months to do". As if the rest of us are just eating bon-bons all day at work! I wish! These talking points do not help the public be more empathetic, they just make us angry (speaking as a member of the public).
This could well be true, and I think the unions are doing their members no favors by making them look like a bunch of whiners. The line that I heard from a teacher that made me the agriest over the years was "teaching is a 12 month job that you only get 9 months to do". As if the rest of us are just eating bon-bons all day at work! I wish! These talking points do not help the public be more empathetic, they just make us angry (speaking as a member of the public).
You are right on! Again I say part of why it becomes such a public display is the need to lobby in public for salary and overall budget increases.
I actually just got into an argument with someone yesterday about this very same issue (i.e. choice.) I left a public school b/c I didn't like the way that I was being treated or the way things were done. I encouraged teachers who didn't like teaching in public schools or who didn't agree with public school policies to seek out other teaching alternatives (private, charter.) The person who I was arguing with said that I was able to leave my crappy job b/c I was "privileged" (i.e. I had money to fall back on and could thus afford to leave a job--and a paycheck--b/c I didn't need one.)
Now, I totally don't agree with someone saying that I am "privileged" b/c I chose not to stay in a toxic situation. However, it illustrates that many teachers DO NOT feel that they have a choice; they have to stay in these situations b/c they need to make a living. As the person with whom I was arguing pointed out, there are not a lot of options other than public, as they comprise the majority of schools in the country.
I keep telling teachers that they do have a choice and should not stay in and empower jobs that they are miserable in. And all I keep hearing back is, "I can't afford to take a stand, I don't have a choice because I can't afford to have one." The issue is further compounded by the fact that a teacher can be fired (and every fired teacher is always blackballed and will be hard pressed to find a job elsewhere, especially without good refs) for what admins view as "insubordination"; and a teacher who expresses an opinion that is contrary to District policy is being insubordinate. It's also interesting to point out that the kids are disciplined for the very same behavior--insubordination--when they defy school policy. [So are most employees, particularly in a corporate setting. In nursing school, the aphorism was "insubordinate students all become psych nurses". I was never exactly sure if that was a good thing or a bad one, but it trends true.]
So I ask you... Do teachers really have a choice? Do you still "have a choice" if you cannot afford to have one? Are teachers really treated as adults when they are disciplined for the very same actions for which students are disciplined? Do teachers have a choice when they will be disciplined for expressing an opinion re:education that does not agree with District policy? Is there really any difference between how a teacher is treated and how a student is treated?
I appreciate all opinions on the matter. However, I am going to state that my answers to the above questions are, "NO."
There's always a choice. It may be between two options you don't like much, but it's still a choice.
"Cannot afford" is extremely mutable, even for a family with one wage earner, and even for a family with children. Those situations require courage and resolve, though, which is generally not found in abundant quantities in whiny people.
I've seen way too many people say they're "trapped" in a job (or a marriage) when what they mean is that they'd have to give up some toys if they left. Having to sell your boat or take a hit on your 401(k) is not a trap. Americans, by and large, are incredibly spoiled and tend to think of loss of possessions as "traps". Valuation of belongings over personal integrity is the real trap.
And for teachers who complain about low pay to complain they're stuck because they couldn't make as much somewhere else is really pretty ironic.
As for "is there any real difference between how a teacher is treated and how a student is treated"...Unless we're talking on a metaphysical level about the archetypes of Teacher and Learner and their place in monomyth, that just smacks of so much overweening self-pity I have no idea where to begin.
You are right on! Again I say part of why it becomes such a public display is the need to lobby in public for salary and overall budget increases.
But as long as teaching is a public effort that depends on taking tax money to fund it, that part will exist. Pay for firefighters and LEOs is hashed out in a public arena, as well, yet the perception isn't the same. So what is it which makes the difference?
And parenthetically, I'm also wondering why the superintendent of schools for our county makes almost twice what the county sheriff does when teachers and deputies have such similar starting salaries?
But as long as teaching is a public effort that depends on taking tax money to fund it, that part will exist. Pay for firefighters and LEOs is hashed out in a public arena, as well, yet the perception isn't the same. So what is it which makes the difference?
And parenthetically, I'm also wondering why the superintendent of schools for our county makes almost twice what the county sheriff does when teachers and deputies have such similar starting salaries?
The sheer size and numbers of school staff vs safety staff. Also the education part of the budget is much larger than the safety side of the budget. Also remember it is what the press elects to weigh in on the most. Safety workers in SOME parts of the country have better benefits compared to teachers. It is easier to increase their salaries as it doesn't impact the budget as much. It is easier for the superintendent to get parents (PTSA) involved lobbying for them when compared to the fire chief.
Well they also have to deal with disruptive students, school boards, parents, planning lessons, and they still have to take care of their own family. I also dont think its fair that they need to have a masters to teach, but they dont get paid like they have a masters. With all the energy, time, and effort they have to put into it, I dont blame them for being burnt out. I could never be a teacher, I admire what they do though. Teachers are never appreciated enough.
Depends on what you mean by to get "paid like they have a masters." My related work in a nonprofit also requires advanced education, gets scrutinized by the public, staff are often isolated, you have to deal with boards and difficult people, take care of your own family, yet the pay rates are often even lower than that of many teachers. Plus, working environments are often so small that employees aren't covered by laws that protect so many teachers and other workers.
I have full sympathy for teachers, and think they put up with a lot, but they're not the only group of workers facing some of these problems.
Depends on what you mean by to get "paid like they have a masters." My related work in a nonprofit also requires advanced education, gets scrutinized by the public, staff are often isolated, you have to deal with boards and difficult people, take care of your own family, yet the pay rates are often even lower than that of many teachers. Plus, working environments are often so small that employees aren't covered by laws that protect so many teachers and other workers.
I have full sympathy for teachers, and think they put up with a lot, but they're not the only group of workers facing some of these problems.
I'm curious as to how many other professionals are required to work 7 hours a day in isolation from their peers.
If your job requires you to work 7 hours a day in isolation from your peers please chime in. By isolation I mean without the ability to take five minutes to run something by a peer. Without the ability to even call a peer up on the phone and run something by them. The requirement that you simply keep working until the end of the day when you may or may not have the oportunity to run something by a peer. No regular debreifing of how things go. No regular feedback on your performance. No peer reviews.
This is the first job I've ever had and only job I know of that requires isolation by the very nature of the job. I stand in front of my classroom alone. I cannot say "excuse me" and go ask a peer what they would do in a situation I am dealing with. If things get bad enough, I may or may not be able to ask for support. I had one situation last year where I needed support of administrators but none were available. They were all in a meeting. I handled it the best I could. I never even got feedback on how well I handled the situation. My only feedback came from friends who are also teachers but I question how honest their feedback is because they are friends.
So, I'd love to hear about other professions where you are required to work in isolation from your peers and how you handle that. How do you handle situations where you're not sure what the right thing to do is when you can't ask a peer? When you can't defer for five minutes to even look something up on line.
Let's hear your strategies for dealing with working in isolation.
It's not just teachers, or at least not just teachers at the K-12 level. What about nannies? Nursery school teachers? For that matter, what about bus drivers? There are lots of jobs that involve isolation. In my case, I was referring to a different sort of isolation. At a small non-profit you have more flexibility as far as time, but you work all the time. Board members call you at home (at 6:30 am on a Saturday, once). Newspapers publish your salary. If you want - gasp - a retirement account it means you're greedy because it's taking away money from the people who need it. You answer to a board, perhaps supervise volunteers who are much, much older than you and treat you like a kid, and have no other real peers in your office because it's too small. There's no protection as far a maternity leave (paid or unpaid), they can discriminate based on all sorts of factors because the staff is so small, you are expected to be everything to everyone at every time. Support of administrators?: There are no administrators. There's just you, with your master's and internships and idealism (but low pay and limited benefits), and no union to step in and intervene in case of problems. No feedback on performance, no peer reviews (because there are no peers). The burn out factor is high.
Again, I'm not saying teachers don't have a rough time (and while not a teacher, I have previously held jobs with long hours spent in classrooms or with kids). But it does get a little irritating to hear people make the argument that teachers have it worse than everyone else. Personally, I think nannies might have it almost the worst of all; you have all the paranoia and the nanny cams, less respect than teachers, you're at the mercy of the parents (and I've seen some of the stuff that parents have done or have tried to do), etc.
Last edited by uptown_urbanist; 07-29-2009 at 01:02 PM..
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