Texas being excluded from the South (state, facts, sound)

[oil capital]

Originally Posted by atadytic19

Yeah, this own nation thing is silly.
The Austin settlers lived like Southern Americans in ever sense of the word. Becoming a state is a process. You don't just declare you are a state.
If you are independent from Mexico and awaiting approval for statehood, then ofcourse you will be an independent republic.

The areas that the US claimed, or those they purchased were territories before they became states because they didn't declare independence.

But, Texas is not by any means unique in that regard.

1. Republic of California- seceded from Mexico
2. Republic of Vermont-aka Green Mountain and New Connecticut-asserted independence from New York-
3. Indian Stream- broke off from New England
4. West Florida- areas if FL, AL, MS and LA
5. Muskogee- carved out if Florida
6. Fredonia- before the Texas Republic, tge Republic of Fredonia declared independence from Mexico.
7. Republic of Franklin- broke off from NC and was this Republic before it became Tennessee.
8. Republic of Rio Grande- parts of Texas and Coahuila
9. Oregon- Oregon, Washington, Idaho,Montana & Wyoming
10. Deseret- the States of Utah, Arizona and Nevada and parts of Oregon, California, New Mexico, Colorado and Wyoming


And the most legit claim to being unique:
The Kingdom of Hawaii


Texans love to brag about it being its own country like that somehow makes it unique from the rest of the south. It does not. It was settled by southerners, it maintained southern traditions and moved in lock step with the south.

When I first moved to Texas there were commercials that ended something like this : Texas, it's like a whole other country. I guess some take this to mean it is unique, but the reference is more to physical size, rather than uniqueness.

Don't get me wrong, Texas does have lots of unique aspects apart from share size. From its early beginnings it had a huge German and Czech population which were not really a thing in the rest of the south. The Germans were anti-slavery and voted against secession.

But by and large, prior to the 1900s, Texas was pretty much indistinguishable from other southern states. The Mexican Revolution caused a flood of migrants from Mexico into Texas after 1910.

There is nothing silly about the "this own nation thing" and it actually is pretty unique. Hawaii is the only other state that was previously an independent and sovereign nation. California kinda sorta was, for a few weeks. But it had no functioning government, currency, or recognition, so it's more than a bit of a stretch.


Vermont also comes close, but never had any diplomatic recognition from anyone.


Unlike California and Vermont, Texas had a fully-functioning government with a President, a Congress, a currency and diplomatic recognition. Pretty unique and 100% unique among southern states.

[atadytic19]

Originally Posted by oil capital

There is nothing silly about the "this own nation thing" and it actually is pretty unique. Hawaii is the only other state that was previously an independent and sovereign nation. California kinda sorta was, for a few weeks. But it had no functioning government, currency, or recognition, so it's more than a bit of a stretch.


Vermont also comes close, but never had any diplomatic recognition from anyone.


Unlike California and Vermont, Texas had a fully-functioning government with a President, a Congress, a currency and diplomatic recognition. Pretty unique and 100% unique among southern states.

That's not true at all.

The republic of Oregon had its own government and currency. https://www.cascadianow.org/articles...blic-of-oregon

The government of the Republic of Oregon was based on the model of governance, that is to say a republic, and it’s boundaries reached to Russian America (Alaska) in the North, south to Mexico (present day California) and east to the Rocky Mountains. Legislators set about writing the ‘Organic Laws of Oregon’...

Vermont too had its own fully fledged government and minted its own currency. Their currency was called the Copper, or Vermont Copper https://vermontmaturity.com/vermont-...ndent-country/

Texas is a famous example, having existed as the Republic of Texas between 1836 and 1846 before joining the Union. Lesser known is the Hawaiian Kingdom, which existed for over 100 years before being annexed by the United States in 1898. However, the honor of being the first secessionist state in North America goes not to Hawaii or Texas, but Vermont

Franklin (and yes it was southern,
along with West Florida, Freedonia, Muskogee and otgers):
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart...lin-180964541/

Franklin existed as an independent state for about four years, transacting its own treaties with the Overhill Cherokee whose land it occupied and even considering an alliance with Spain.

The own country thing isn't unique to Texas at all. Texans just enjoy being extra. The US had not even finished dividing up the Louisiana Territory when Texas declared independence, and the US was fresh off annexation of tge West Florida Territory, so there was a lot going on, and Texas is further west than those territories, but it was just another southern territory added to the union.

[oil capital]

Originally Posted by atadytic19

That's not true at all.

The republic of Oregon had its own government and currency. https://www.cascadianow.org/articles...blic-of-oregon

Vermont too had its own fully fledged government and minted its own currency. Their currency was called the Copper, or Vermont Copper https://vermontmaturity.com/vermont-...ndent-country/


Franklin (and yes it was southern,
along with West Florida, Freedonia, Muskogee and otgers):
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart...lin-180964541/


The own country thing isn't unique to Texas at all. Texans just enjoy being extra. The US had not even finished dividing up the Louisiana Territory when Texas declared independence, and the US was fresh off annexation of tge West Florida Territory, so there was a lot going on, and Texas is further west than those territories, but it was just another southern territory added to the union.

The "Republic of Oregon "existed" in territory claimed by both the United States and Britain. It was in no sense an independent nation as we generally use the term. (And neither your linked article or a quick Google search shows that the Republic of Oregon ever issued its own currency.


Vermont, as I mentioned earlier was never diplomatically recognized as an independent nation.


Likewise, Franklln. The article you linked sums it up rather nicely: "those communities 'had the option of creating jurisdictions within existing states, forming new states within the union, or creating their own sovereign republics.' The residents of Franklin chose the middle option" (forming a new state within the union). Any currency? Any diplomatic recognition or diplomatic missions? Texas had all of these indicia of an independent sovereign nation. Further, the discussion is states that were previously independent nations. Franklin did not become a state.



West Florida? ? Muskogee?? and others??? What states did those areas become? (of course you know they didn't become states) What currencies did they issue? What diplomatic recognition did any of them gain? What diplomatic missions did they deploy? Freedonia?? That's a really funny one. Just declaring yourself an independent nation does not make it so.


Again, Texas had a fully functioning government, significant diplomatic recognition, diplomatic missions, and its own currency and then joined the Union as a state. None of Oregon, Vermont or California had all of these indicia of sovereign nationhood. The other areas you mentioned, in addition to lacking one or more (in most cases, most) of the indicia of sovereign nationhood, also did not later become states (they became small parts of other states).

[Dopo]

Originally Posted by oil capital

There is nothing silly about the "this own nation thing" and it actually is pretty unique.

What nobody mentions is that the same year, 1836, Texas broke from Mexico, it requested to be annexed to the United States.
The request was rejected and "The Republic of Texas" happened, not by choice, but because they were forced to do it.

[atadytic19]

Originally Posted by oil capital

The "Republic of Oregon "existed" in territory claimed by both the United States and Britain. It was in no sense an independent nation as we generally use the term. (And neither your linked article or a quick Google search shows that the Republic of Oregon ever issued its own currency.


Vermont, as I mentioned earlier was never diplomatically recognized as an independent nation.


Likewise, Franklln. The article you linked sums it up rather nicely: "those communities 'had the option of creating jurisdictions within existing states, forming new states within the union, or creating their own sovereign republics.' The residents of Franklin chose the middle option" (forming a new state within the union). Any currency? Any diplomatic recognition or diplomatic missions? Texas had all of these indicia of an independent sovereign nation. Further, the discussion is states that were previously independent nations. Franklin did not become a state.



West Florida? ? Muskogee?? and others??? What states did those areas become? (of course you know they didn't become states) What currencies did they issue? What diplomatic recognition did any of them gain? What diplomatic missions did they deploy? Freedonia?? That's a really funny one. Just declaring yourself an independent nation does not make it so.


Again, Texas had a fully functioning government, significant diplomatic recognition, diplomatic missions, and its own currency and then joined the Union as a state. None of Oregon, Vermont or California had all of these indicia of sovereign nationhood. The other areas you mentioned, in addition to lacking one or more (in most cases, most) of the indicia of sovereign nationhood, also did not later become states (they became small parts of other states).

The Republic of Oregon minted money was called Beaver Dollars or Beaver Money.

You can easily look these things up. Here's a start: https://ammo.com/articles/sovereign-...oined-us-union

I already said the Republic of Franklin became part of Tennessee.

Again all these things you can just look up.
Recognition isn't the be all and end all of a Republic.

Fact of the matter is almost all of these countries set up provisional governments while they awaited annexation to the US. JUST LIKE TEXAS. Texas is just the only one that keeps going on and on and on about it

[oil capital]

Originally Posted by atadytic19

The Republic of Oregon minted money was called Beaver Dollars or Beaver Money.

You can easily look these things up. Here's a start: https://ammo.com/articles/sovereign-...oined-us-union

I already said the Republic of Franklin became part of Tennessee.

Again all these things you can just look up.
Recognition isn't the be all and end all of a Republic.

Fact of the matter is almost all of these countries set up provisional governments while they awaited annexation to the US. JUST LIKE TEXAS. Texas is just the only one that keeps going on and on and on about it

I'm aware of Beaver money (and I have been looking these things up). You should do the same (and read your sources more carefully). Your own source refers to the "provisional government of Oregon". If one is setting up a government intended to be sovereign and independent, one doesn't typically establish a "provisional" government. Also, according to your own source, the beaver money was minted by a private mint, not by the government. They were concerned with the possibility that a private mint might violate US law, so they appointed some provisional government officials to the board. It seems like even the officeholders of this provisional government didn't think they were establishing a sovereign independent nation.

Also, the Republic of Oregon purported to include much more than what we now know as the State of Oregon. At best (and it's still a big stretch) one could say that the State of Oregon was previously part of another independent sovereign nation; but of course that can also be said of the original thirteen states).

Yes, the "Republic of Franklin" eventually became a part of Tennessee. That was after a rather convoluted history during which, for a brief time it was "independent"pretty much in name only. But again, even if one considers the Republic of Franklin to have been an independent nation (and I would not), it cannot be said that the State of Tennessee was formerly an independent nation, as can be said about Texas. (I don't think Texans claim that no other part of the United States was ever part of another sovereign nation.)

[atadytic19]

All smoke screens.
Don't act like Texas didn't set up a government until it made it into the US, just like Oregon.

Texas applied to be a state as soon as it became independent. Had it been admitted right away we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

Again, Texas was 100% southern from its inception. This "we are different because we were our own country" narrative is just more Texas Hype

[oil capital]

Originally Posted by atadytic19

All smoke screens.
Don't act like Texas didn't set up a government until it made it into the US, just like Oregon.

Texas applied to be a state as soon as it became independent. Had it been admitted right away we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

Again, Texas was 100% southern from its inception. This "we are different because we were our own country" narrative is just more Texas Hype

LOL. I get it. Facts that don’t support your preferred narrative are smoke screens.

[atadytic19]

Originally Posted by oil capital

LOL. I get it. Facts that don’t support your preferred narrative are smoke screens.

Yall can try to make it whatever yall want it to be.
It will still remain a southern state.

Facts!

[KathrynAragon]

Texas is a southern state - it's just not part of the DEEP South, and that's fine in my opinion. It's a border state.