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Hello Torontonians. I'm going to preface this post by apologizing in advance if I'm being vague but I'm hoping to get some anecdotal responses about cost of living in Toronto, living in Toronto, relocating as a US citizen , etc. etc. I'm happy to provide any more specifics that may help answer my questions.
First a little background:
I'm 30 years old and currently living in New York City and will likely be beginning salary negotiations shortly for a potential relocation to Toronto. I work in software and I would be transferring within my company from our NYC office to our Toronto office and they will be taking care of all immigration procedures and fees should this all go through as planned. I'm a bit hesitant about the whole prospect simply because this is a major life-changing decision and despite the fact that the US and Canada share many similarities I would still be moving to another country. I spent 16 years in Buffalo and have been to Toronto many times, although it's probably been 10+ years since my last visit, so I am familiar with the city on some level.
I expect my negotiations will likely lead to an offer in the $100k - $120k range. My expectations would be to live in a "nice-ish"1 bedroom in a central area of Toronto where I would be easy walking distance to local restaurants, bars, shops, and daily conveniences like grocery stores, etc. Ideally I'd like to own an inexpensive used car for visiting friends and family in Buffalo but would like to be close to public transportation to commute to work in the finance district. I will be moving with my girlfriend (more on that below) and would likely be the sole income for at least the first few months. It'd be important to be able to afford to go out for dinner and drinks a couple times a week and be able to generally afford a "comfortable" lifestyle. (Yes, I realize that's completely subjective).
Soooo....
-- With approximately $100k for a couple in their late twenties/early 30's do you believe the above is a reasonable expectation? Any anecdotes about cost of living in Toronto and general day-to-day living would be really useful. I've lived in NYC for a number of years now so I'm not necessarily worried about sticker shock but would like to know how the cost of living compares. I've looked at the calculators and formal surveys but I'd be interesting in hearing from those on the ground.
-- What areas would you recommend for someone looking for a nice mix of relative peace and quiet, arts and music, interesting shops, good but not "highbrow" restaurants, cool bars (NOT yuppie hangouts) and some uniquely Toronto character?
-- I'd be moving with my girlfriend who would be looking for employment. I realize there would be some hurdles to immigration for her but the company lawyers would likely find a way to make it work (or so I'm told). I've read about common-law partners, conjugal partners, etc. so I'm *hoping* she can make it into the country and get the appropriate work visas. Assuming that pans out, how is the employment picture in general there for office management, account management, etc. She has years of experience in the fashion industry which I realize in Toronto isn't anywhere near the scale of NYC but her skill set should be broadly applicable.
Thanks so much for reading my longwinded post and sincere thanks to anyone who can offer some words of wisdom. As you can imagine this is a nerve racking venture. There's plenty more I'd like to ask but I'm sure I will get to that. Thanks again!
I believe with 100K-120K income, you will be able to have a comfortable life here. Of course tax will eat a third of your paycheck, but you will still end up with 65K-80K net income, or 5000-6500 per month. Rent in a nice-ish neighbourhood in downtown come at $1500-$1600, say a 700sf one bedroom. I would highly recommend either the St Lawrence market, or King West between University Ave and Spadina. Very chic and urban. Yorkville is more upscale but you will be probably looking at $2000+ a month, which may not be worth it. There are many high rise condos along Bay st and by the lake as well, but I personally don't prefer those as much as the two areas I mentioned earlier, simply because there is some distance from the restaurants and nightlife you are interested in. Many might recommend Queen West, but I don't either. It could get pretty noisy sometimes because it is like the Soho in NYC.
Like NYC, driving will not be cheap. You will probably pay $200 a month for parking, another $200 for insurance, and gas price is about 25% higher than NYC as well.
As to public transit, my advice is simply, don't count on it! We have 20% of NYC's subway, which is more expensive and breaks down more frequently. So if you work in downtown financial district, you are better off living in downtown and spare yourself the misery of what the pathetic TTC offers. I am not saying the TTC doesn't work- it does bring people to work but it is just annoying. But maybe it is just me.
Outside downtown, Yonge/St Claire to Yonge/Eglington are both trendy places as well but in a less crowded way. But at your age, downtown should be more ideal, particularly considering the underground path is pretty handy when it is -20C outside!
Can't advise on your girlfriend's job, someone else may have some idea on that!
If you're looking to live in a relatively centralized location close to the downtown core, there's a wide array of neighborhoods located along Yonge Street (Toronto's 5th Av equivalent). There's also a subway line which basically runs right under Yonge, and can get you literally anywhere in the downtown core in a matter of minutes.
Some affordable neighborhoods i'd suggest to look into would be Yonge-Bloor, Yonge-College, The Annex, and adjascent neighborhoods along Jarvis. Keep in mind these areas might be a little pricey, but the further you digress from Yonge St and the waterfront, the more affordable things get.
A subway stop might be an extra 5-10 minute walk but that never hurt anybody, did it? Some other interesting and "artsy" neighborhoods could be found along King/Spadina, Queen/Bathurst, College/Ossington, St Lawrence, Kensington Market, and Bloor/Ossignton. Keep in mind these are centrally located and more towards the waterfront than I suggested before but these areas offer much more character, and things to do in terms of nightlife/museums/librarys etc.
The job market's booming in the city, expecially on the managerial and business front. Being close to the downtown core is a plus since that's where most of the commerce in the city's based in.
And being from Queens myself, I've been looking into moving to Toronto as well. It just offers so much more in terms of safety, quality of living, affordability, and job opportunities. New York is a shark tank right now in terms of competition, we have out of state Americans and educated immigrants alike fighting for positions like no tomorrow. Good luck on your move, I wish I was in such a great position as you are.
Thank you both for your thorough replies! They've been very helpful and it's good to hear opinions about making the numbers work. I've started sifting through info about the neighborhoods you've mentioned and looking up apartment info. This leads me to another question:
What is the preferred method for finding apartments in Toronto? I've looked at Craigslist, and perhaps I'm just used to the thousands upon thousands of daily listings on the site here in NY, but the listings seem a bit sparse. For example, a search for "Annex" on Toronto CL turns up only 14 results from yesterday. I've read that it's an extremely popular neighborhood so am I wrong to expect more results? Is Craigslist just not used as much for Toronto? Where should I be looking for apartments?
In NY we very often have to use an apartment broker and pay a hefty fee for doing so (usually 10-12% of the first years rent). Are these broker fees common in Toronto as well or do people usually find places on their own? Also, here we usually have to pay first month rent, last month rent, security deposit, and broker fee. It quickly can go into many thousands of dollars simply to get the key to an apartment. What up front fees should I expect in Toronto?
kkgg7 - I've heard a number of mixed reviews on the TTC. I suppose the same could be said for most major public transportation systems. They never seem to operate efficiently but are also indespensible. I know all about those frustrations and the NYC subway certainly has it's own issues. Service has become less frequent, lines are being removed, fares are being raised, and the overall quality and efficiency of the subway has really dropped over the last few years. Who knows, maybe the smaller TTC would be a welcome change?
Led - Thanks for your advice as well. I've noticed that neighborhoods are often listed by their main intersections in Toronto (ie Yonge-Bloor). Seems to make for difficult apt hunting search terms unless I'm just missing the trick or looking on the wrong site. It's good to hear that a fellow NY'er is interested in making the move. Many think I'm crazy for even considering the move since NYC is supposedly "the greatest city on earth" or something along those lines. Honestly, NY has lost it's magic for me some time ago. It's a great city for sure, and being able to walk everywhere and just be surrounded by that "buzz" is very cool. However, it's really just became the place I live and it's an expensive, crowded, and stressful one at that. I've had my fun here and I totally understand why young people all want to move here, but if it weren't for my friends and family in the area I probably would not even hesitate to leave. Hope everything works out for you as well and you can find a way to make it to Toronto.
As to choosing an apartment...
I'd not want to sign a lease remotely.
I see 2 options.
Option A. Draw on a map squares of places you want to live. Find all listings in those areas and book viewings all over 2 days on a weekend. Fill the schedule with back to back appointments all day trying to leave places that don't require appointments to fill in gaps.. Fly in to Toronto for the weekend , rent a car and visit them all. Don't focus on just one place but pick out a few candidates. If you put everything into one place and then fly home and something falls through you don't want to have to go back..
Option B. Find an extended stay hotel type place to stay for the first few months. Put your belongings into storage if needed. Then you can take your time choosing a neighborhood. You might even be able to work in the cost (or a portion) of this into your negotiations with the employer as part of relocation expenses.
You'll find some ads or people will refer to intersections and others will refer to neighborhood names. Using a guide like List of neighbourhoods in Toronto - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and an online map and some notes on a pad of paper will help you make a chart that maps out main intersections to neighborhoods.
Thanks Marc! If this all ends up happening I'd likely be flown to Toronto and working out of there for a week or two before making the move. This would allow me to see apartments and get a feel for the city. That Wiki link is great and contains a lot of detailed info about the various neighborhoods. Do you have any websites other than Craigslist you'd recommend for apartment searching or is that the main one as it is here in NY?
I don't think it is the norm to use a broker and pay a fee to find an apartment. First+last month rent is the same here. No additional security deposit. So if you rent a $1,500 apartment, you need $3,000 upfront, and that should be it.
Unfortunately many areas don't really have a name for the neighbourhood (such as Yonge/Bloor etc), which does make it challenging to do the search when you don't have a good idea of where those streets are. I would recommend use google map and locate the property, and then decide whether it is the right place for you.
I also think you should stay in a hotel for a week, take your time to find the perfect place and then sign a lease. You don't want to end up in the place you have never seen which turns out not to be as nice as you previously thought.
As to the TTC, all I can say is we are still use tokens from the 80's, which makes it almost a laughing stock among the world's public transit systems. Just expect nothing from it and you won't get disappointed, LOL.
-- I'd be moving with my girlfriend who would be looking for employment. I realize there would be some hurdles to immigration for her but the company lawyers would likely find a way to make it work (or so I'm told). I've read about common-law partners, conjugal partners, etc. so I'm *hoping* she can make it into the country and get the appropriate work visas. Assuming that pans out, how is the employment picture in general there for office management, account management, etc. She has years of experience in the fashion industry which I realize in Toronto isn't anywhere near the scale of NYC but her skill set should be broadly applicable.
Are you coming on a work permit? If yes, and if you are married, your spouse is eligible for a open work permit which would allow her to find any work with any employer.
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