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Isn't it interesting that a thread intended to be primarily about the extreme form of social exclusion which prevails in downtown has ended up being primarily about race and crime, with blacks and other concerned people on the defensive?
How did we get here?
I believe it was because someone said something about stereotypes, and then someone else suggested that stereotypes, like those involving black men and crime, are sometimes true.
I wish I had nipped the discussion in the bud right there. Although I am stereotyped, I don't think I am often stereotyped as a criminal. Maybe it is because I don't give off that vibe. More likely, maybe it is because the kind of stuff being discussed in this thread simply doesn't happen in my part of town, and everybody knows it. So in my experience, at least, people don't seem especially afraid of young black men. I often cross paths with young women walking alone at night; they don't seem to bat an eyelash.
But few of those women would sit anywhere close to me in, say, a coffee shop, at least if there was any alternative at all available.
The same thing is true, to a somewhat lesser extent, for (non-black) men.
Some of the people commenting on this thread seem to have taken my statement that it is hard for black men to meet women here as a statement that it is hard for black men to meet white women here. (It is hard for men period, but much harder for black men.) I've already said that that is a misinterpretation. What I want to point out now is that I also said that men also engage in many of the same acts of avoidance, and more generally also shun black men. So why are there no comments about that?
But there is a connection between the discussion I intended to have, and the discussion we ended up having. I believe that many black youth end up in trouble or otherwise underachieving in life because they hang out with the wrong crowd. (Notice that I didn't say that that was the only reason.) That crowd is largely, like themselves, young, black and male. For obvious reasons, it would help if these youngsters had other social groups open to them. But this is a lot less likely to happen if there are practices of social exclusion. (To be honest, though, I very much doubt that the same kind of social exclusion happens in the parts of town where young black men are most at risk.)
Isn't it interesting that a thread intended to be primarily about the extreme form of social exclusion which prevails in downtown has ended up being primarily about race and crime, with blacks and other concerned people on the defensive?
How did we get here?
I believe it was because someone said something about stereotypes, and then someone else suggested that stereotypes, like those involving black men and crime, are sometimes true.
I wish I had nipped the discussion in the bud right there. Although I am stereotyped, I don't think I am often stereotyped as a criminal. Maybe it is because I don't give off that vibe. More likely, maybe it is because the kind of stuff being discussed in this thread simply doesn't happen in my part of town, and everybody knows it. So in my experience, at least, people don't seem especially afraid of young black men. I often cross paths with young women walking alone at night; they don't seem to bat an eyelash.
But few of those women would sit anywhere close to me in, say, a coffee shop, at least if there was any alternative at all available.
The same thing is true, to a somewhat lesser extent, for (non-black) men.
Some of the people commenting on this thread seem to have taken my statement that it is hard for black men to meet women here as a statement that it is hard for black men to meet white women here. (It is hard for men period, but much harder for black men.) I've already said that that is a misinterpretation. What I want to point out now is that I also said that men also engage in many of the same acts of avoidance, and more generally also shun black men. So why are there no comments about that?
But there is a connection between the discussion I intended to have, and the discussion we ended up having. I believe that many black youth end up in trouble or otherwise underachieving in life because they hang out with the wrong crowd. (Notice that I didn't say that that was the only reason.) That crowd is largely, like themselves, young, black and male. For obvious reasons, it would help if these youngsters had other social groups open to them. But this is a lot less likely to happen if there are practices of social exclusion. (To be honest, though, I very much doubt that the same kind of social exclusion happens in the parts of town where young black men are most at risk.)
Man I kind of feel for you. I'm a Black man, but i'm Black American and I travel back and forth from Toronto to Atlanta. I'm actually a permanent resident so I go back and forth a lot, Toronto is kind of my 2nd home. My ex-wife is from here, British / Ukranian (White Woman) dark hair & Blue eyes. Very pretty girl, I can't lie. lol. Anyways, from living up here I will say that my years of coming up to Toronto that maybe it was different for me being a Black American guy, that people up here would treat me like gold almost. From the girls to just people that heard my accent and instantly knew I was American and they seemed to be on their best behavior. I noticed how I got treated different than how the Black guys up in Canada were treated. I always noticed it, I never had a problem coming up to Toronto and dating all kinds of women. If I were you, just for a change of scenery i'd go check out maybe like Atlanta if you can get across the border and get down there.
It's a good feeling in Atlanta to see so many successful Black people. And lots of nice restaurants, clubs, cost of living is great too. And the weather is sweet. Atlanta is a warm weather city, so the winters are mild. If you never been down there, go check it out. If for nothing else just to see something different. Toronto is just one place man, lots of other places you can try and see if it fits your personality and who you are. Toronto has kind of lost it's flair for me, so i'll be spending more of my time back in Atlanta and i'll be visiting some other cities too just for travel and a look see. I've seen Toronto over the years it was better some time ago anyways. Man travel, i'm sure Toronto is your home and this is what your used to but you gotta see more places. Trust me the more you travel the more you see what you like and maybe you'll find another place you might wanna try living that suits you.
I am a young black man, and I think Toronto has a major race problem.
I’ll say more about that in a moment, but I want to say a couple other things first.
First, to some of you who have read my posts before, it will come as a surprise that I’m black; I’ve never posted anything about race up until now. (For anyone who doesn’t believe that, I invite you to review my previous posts.)
Second, I think I was too harsh in some of the things I previously said about Toronto: that it is extremely hard to make friends here, that the people here are extremely unfriendly and that it is extremely difficult to meet women here. My present view is that each of these things is true to some extent, but not nearly as bad as I had thought – at least if you are not a young black male.
Which brings me back to the claim I made in the opening sentence. Toronto is not as bad as I thought because I now think that it was my blackness which led me to have certain experiences here. In the past, I did not see this as fully as I now do. To be sure, I was always aware that race was a significant factor in some of my experiences; for example, I realized early on that it was largely because of race that I was not able to make any friends at my place of employment after I moved here.
But I didn’t realize just how much it was because of race that after years of living here I had made no friends, and literally went years without even going on a single date – despite the fact that I lived in an area with a large number of people who were, like me, educated, hip, left-leaning, and 20- and 30-something. I didn’t realize just how much race-based discrimination, enacted on a daily basis by a large number of actors in a wide variety of situations, would lead me to have certain experiences. For example, as a black man in downtown on the west side (where few black people live; most, I now want to think, must have known better), I didn’t realize how much I was the victim of acts which I later saw amounted to a pattern of avoidance: that people were avoiding sitting/standing next to me in coffee shops, libraries, Laundromats, even the grocery line (I have seen people, especially women, join much, much lengthier lines instead of mine). I didn’t realize that my race/gender the was reason why almost nobody ever talked to me, over the course of years. I didn’t realize that some of the behavior that I would encounter from women in public spaces – where they would not simply avoid eye contact (a phenomenon Toronto is notorious for), but do things that I would characterize as sending me totally unprovoked signals of disinterest (which I found hugely disempowering) – was a result of my race.
In short, I didn’t realize how much I, as a black man, was being shunned because of that.
Now if people – especially young, downtown-dwelling people – are honest, they will say that none of this surprises them. I say that because I believe that, however much non-blacks try to keep black people in the dark about it, it is clear to me that most people are aware that black people, especially young black men, are widely held in low esteem here. But I don’t expect people to be honest, not even with the anonymity that the Internet provides.
Anyway, in hindsight I guess I should have realized that the high level of residential segregation I observed downtown partly reflected some form of hostility to blacks.
Before closing, let me say that the issues I have discussed are obviously not the only racial issues that plague the city. But other issues – like widespread employment discrimination, both in hiring and promotion, and the racial achievement gap in schools – are already well-known.
So to non-blacks thinking of coming here, and who read my earlier posts about Toronto, please keep in mind that I was speaking from a place where I didn’t fully understand how race was affecting my experience.
To blacks who are thinking of the same thing, please give my comments here some serious thought before taking the plunge. And even if you do decide to take it, give some additional thought about living on the west side of downtown.
Finally, to anybody who is at all decent, and who lives here, I wish you would stop saying how “great†of a city you have here, and do something about your race problem.
I'm First Nations, and it only took me WEEKS not years for Montreal to do stupid crap to me calling me "foreign black from overseas" to my face - in French, assuming that I couldn't possibly understand what they were saying because I looked TOO STUPID to have learned French all through high school and then in Belgium and Switzerland as an adult. Because I had gone TO England for a teaching job, when I got BACK to Canada that's where all the idiocy and "you're FROM overseas" crap started. They could not understand the FIRST NATIONS BORN IN CANADA (and educated in the USA) part if their stupid 50% illiteracy rate lives depended on it.
At least in Toronto you didn't have the perceived "language barrier." In all fairness actual African blacks FROM Francophone African countries get treated like "not French speaking" by Quebec too, so there's that.
To this day every time I meet anyone "from" Quebec I still get treated like crap who must be NOT Canadian, and "from" any place EXCEPT Canada. They, and to some extent Toronto, think that THEY constitute ALL of Canada and anyone born out in Western Canada is "an American" or in my case, "a foreigner from overseas." Now, admittedly, this looks more ridiculous as I type it up than when it happens in person, because in person it's perfectly obvious they're being RACIST.
I waffle between wanting to go build myself an igloo somewhere in Nunavut and taking my cats and just working online captioning for the Deaf, and wanting to do the same in the mountains somewhere outside Gallup. (The necessary internet connectivity would probably cost more in Canada.)
At least in Toronto you didn't have the perceived "language barrier." In all fairness actual African blacks FROM Francophone African countries get treated like "not French speaking" by Quebec too, so there's that.
)
I am surrounded at the moment by people who could attest that this is not the case. Of course there is racism in Quebec just like anywhere else but this is a major generalization that goes way too far.
Again I agree there are many blacks that are successful, BUT relatively to their population size its still very small. How much do you want to bet that the 18 million Asian Americans in the US are doing vastly better than the 42 million black Americans in terms of higher number of wealthy individuals, higher average income, higher average education and lower average crime rates?
And THAT is why when people see brown skin, any shade of brown, they automatically assume that you must be ghetto trash or Rez trash or Barrio trash, whichever race's stereotypes you are living down the nanosecond people lay eyes on you. My terminal university degree level is a J.D. (so far! I don't see a need to go for my PhD...) and when people see me in person they treat me like I look like I couldn't possibly even have finished high school. It doesn't matter if I'm "suited and booted."
Toronto is safe. Sure blacks make up a lot of crime and have a higher percentage than other. But The majority is still law abiding citizens and it is unfair to group them with the bad apples. 99 % or more of blacks in the city follow the law.
The face of Torontos crime has a color...and its black.
That is just the front. There are rows and rows of different colours hiding being that.
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