Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Shanghai is a horrible place to live IMO. It is growing fast, and did a lot of good things, but overall, quality of life is quite bad.
Unless you make good money ($60k or above). An ex-manager of mine, who is an American from California moved to Shanghai 10 years ago and doesn't even consider moving back to the States, because according to her, it is unthinkable to return and live a quiet, suburban life doing household chores everyday, with nothing but the kid's soccer practice or tonight's dinner on her mind. They bought an apartment and plan to stay there long term. Another finance executive I know who is semi-retired, stayed there for more than 10 years, making frequent trips elsewhere in Asia, also has no plan to return to North America, where he finds boring. With money, one can have a great life there - better than Toronto for sure, because they don't lead an average Shanghainese life.
But of course both of them are wealthy and would be upper middle class even put in NYC. For the average folks, it is not a great place to live for sure. Congestion, long commute, work stress, long queues everywhere (hospitals, banks, public services).
My main issue with Shanghai (and Beijing) is the horrendous air pollution. Shanghai used to claim that they are "immune" from the norther smog. Surprise surprise.
After watching last month's documentary by Chai Jing "Under the Dome" about smog - it just makes you shudder at the amount of damage PM2.5 can do to a healthy human being and the surrounding environment.
Couldn't the same argument be made for most world class big cities? London, NYC, Paris, HK etc. If you don't have money, lifestyle is not that great. But cities like these have such a big wealthy class, they form a big contingent in the core that gets all the limelight. Even Toronto, as a mid-sized city on a global scale, is trending in this direction in some ways. For average joes, perhaps mega cities with sky high costs of living and congestion may not be the best quality of life.
I think some European cities are still okay, like Berlin or Hamburg for example. Very affordable housing and cost of living, along with good public amenities.
You can make median income in NYC yet have a decent life. However, with a median income, you will struggle in Shanghai, where a modest 800sf apartment in a not so central area will cost $400k. And median income in Shanghai is nowhere near that in NYC. Don't you hear the Chinese shop like there is no tomorrow in HK or Los Angeles? They do so because they think it is cheap (not necessarily luxury products).
Plus the lack of a decent social safety net and all sort of outright discrimination (gender, age) don't really help. In many job descriptions, they can explicitly require the candidate to be male and above 5'8'', or female and good-looking.
Lol. And make sure to attach your best PS pictures to the CV.
You can make median income in NYC yet have a decent life. However, with a median income, you will struggle in Shanghai, where a modest 800sf apartment in a not so central area will cost $400k. And median income in Shanghai is nowhere near that in NYC. Don't you hear the Chinese shop like there is no tomorrow in HK or Los Angeles? They do so because they think it is cheap (not necessarily luxury products).
Plus the lack of a decent social safety net and all sort of outright discrimination (gender, age) don't really help. In many job descriptions, they can explicitly require the candidate to be male and above 5'8'', or female and good-looking.
Very true, and $400 k USD is still a lot of money for your average middle class Chinese family, while here $400 k is a pretty manageable mortgage for most families.
My closest grad school friend living in Shanghai works at Boston Consulting Group, one of the most well-paid employers on this planet, and he still lives with his mom at home in Shanghai...
Couldn't the same argument be made for most world class big cities? London, NYC, Paris, HK etc. If you don't have money, lifestyle is not that great. But cities like these have such a big wealthy class, they form a big contingent in the core that gets all the limelight. Even Toronto, as a mid-sized city on a global scale, is trending in this direction in some ways. For average joes, perhaps mega cities with sky high costs of living and congestion may not be the best quality of life.
I wanted to reply to this post yesterday but forgot.
There does seem to be a trend for the world's biggest cities to become fairly exclusive playgrounds for the rich and famous. The rest of the world is invited to come and visit of course but living there is increasingly out of reach for ordinary workers.
This contrasts to the past where the poor and working class flocked to the city in search of jobs that they needed to be close to because transportation was inconvenient or expensive or both. And for a time many of the rich and famous lived outside the city since they had access to and means for convenient private transportation to get to the city easily as required, but didn't have to live there among the teeming masses.
But cities and suburbs became victims of their own success, and the rich and famous have now decided that downtown is the place to be. In almost any major city, coming into town from the suburbs day in and day out is generally much more of a drag today than it was 20, 30 or 40 years ago. So the rich and famous don't want that lifestyle anymore.
So today increasingly the rapidly expanding nicer parts of the inner city is where the rich and famous live their everyday lives, close to everything the need, want and admire, but they usually have a secondary home some distance outside the city to decompress and "connect with nature" for weekends and holidays.
And they leave the daily suburb-city-suburb grind to the rank and file.
I wanted to reply to this post yesterday but forgot.
There does seem to be a trend for the world's biggest cities to become fairly exclusive playgrounds for the rich and famous. The rest of the world is invited to come and visit of course but living there is increasingly out of reach for ordinary workers.
This contrasts to the past where the poor and working class flocked to the city in search of jobs that they needed to be close to because transportation was inconvenient or expensive or both. And for a time many of the rich and famous lived outside the city since they had access to and means for convenient private transportation to get to the city easily as required, but didn't have to live there among the teeming masses.
But cities and suburbs became victims of their own success, and the rich and famous have now decided that downtown is the place to be. In almost any major city, coming into town from the suburbs day in and day out is generally much more of a drag today than it was 20, 30 or 40 years ago. So the rich and famous don't want that lifestyle anymore.
So today increasingly the rapidly expanding nicer parts of the inner city is where the rich and famous live their everyday lives, close to everything the need, want and admire, but they usually have a secondary home some distance outside the city to decompress and "connect with nature" for weekends and holidays.
And they leave the daily suburb-city-suburb grind to the rank and file.
I definitely see your point. People on C/D tend to focus on "average joes" or "average or median incomes", but personally, I don't see how big, successful, world class mega cities offer the best quality of life for average folks. Of course, this is not to be confused with people earning average dollars who will one day earn upper middle class dollars, it's more for the people who peak at average and have to raise families at this level. I don't see how sky high costs of living + average wages translates into great a QOL for many.
I definitely see your point. People on C/D tend to focus on "average joes" or "average or median incomes", but personally, I don't see how big, successful, world class mega cities offer the best quality of life for average folks. Of course, this is not to be confused with people earning average dollars who will one day earn upper middle class dollars, it's more for the people who peak at average and have to raise families at this level. I don't see how sky high costs of living + average wages translates into great a QOL for many.
Some people also tend to discount the attraction of large expensive cities just because they don't suit their needs.
Big cities are big for a reason, and many people live there despite high prices for a reason. Not everyone cares most about where is most affordable so that I can have a dream house with good income - this is simply not enough. Imagine I get a job from Hamilton or London promising me the same wage, which means my money will go a lot farther. Will I move there? Not a chance! How can I stand all those empty streets and small downtown devoid of any interesting urban life and cultural facilities? Just to have a big home, cheap things and access to some nature is not enough. There are a lot of things that big cities offer that makes life richer, more interesting and energizing than just houses, food and consumer products.
Not to mention the opportunities, not just in terms of career, but in terms what kind of people from all walks of life, all part of the world we might run into. Small and affordable cities rarely offer any.
People with average income choose to stay in NYC or London not because they are stupid not knowing everything is cheaper elsewhere. It is because they don't want to say good bye to things and experience that make their life more fulfilling despite the high prices, congestion and crowded spaces. And I certainly don't believe just because one is married and have kids, the focus immediately changed, and urban experience doesn't matter any more. As I have pointed out a few times on this forum, I think it is a cruel thing for a child to be raise in the absolutely quiet, safe and boring car dependent suburbs just because the parents THINK raising a child requires a big house and a spacious yard more out of peer pressure and conformism than a real need.
This is kind of a merged response to the two previous posts...
Without being condescending, I would say that many "average" people don't really partake in the special "plusses" that their city has to offer (if we're talking about a huge metropolis), and their life wouldn't change that much "downwards" if they moved to Winnipeg or Moncton from Toronto.
A lot of non-rich people live in huge cities primarily because a) that's where they are from so it's what they know or b) the sheer size of the city makes for a large and diverse job market with any occupation under the sun.
Most people don't live in NYC in order to go to the MOMA and Carnegie Hall every weekend.
A strong majority of New Yorkers could probably live extremely close to the exact same way they do now even if they moved to Chicago or even a whole of bunch of other American cities.
^ Yes, big cities have more things going on and attract more interesting people. I personally could not a small town for these reasons alone but there are also mid-sized city options out there that are fun and interesting. It's not just NYC vs. Syracuse, there are other options. If an average person is priced out of a mega city core, then they have longer commutes and don't take advantage of anything urban anyways. And if they are family people, the interests shift more toward child-friendly amenities too. Say someone is a Claims Adjuster, living in Manhattan is going to be tough. A Claims Adjuster in say Pittsburgh might arguably have a better quality of life.
Last edited by johnathanc; 03-11-2015 at 09:25 AM..
Without being condescending, I would say that many "average" people don't really partake in the special "plusses" that their city has to offer (if we're talking about a huge metropolis), and their life wouldn't change that much "downwards" if they moved to Winnipeg or Moncton from Toronto.
...)
special plusses don't have to come with high price tag. There are lot of free and cheap plusses in big cities. Free concerts, free festivals and events etc. It doesn't have to be the Met or MOMA, but life is more interesting when you encounter different people and different things everyday, instead of seeing and doing the same thing same people 365 days of the year.
Additionally, other than housing, large cities aren't necessarily more expensive than smaller ones, because the economies of scale of big cities enable restaurants and shop to offer products and service at affordable prices. For example, there are many 24 hour/18 hour restaurants in Scarborough that have good food at every low price (under $10). If put in a small city like Windsor or Sarnia, the price could be much higher because volume will be significantly lower. In New York city, many products can be surprisingly cheap as well just because the huge number they are able to sell.
Within the same country, house is probably the only thing that is definitely more expensive in large cities, and that's a problem only because people want too much space they don't necessarily need. If you have a room that is vacant for 300 days of the year (like a dining room or a guest room), it means you don't need it - nice to have of course but not necessary. People keep forgetting a big house doesn't and should make them happier, but unfortunately most feel they are entitled to this amount of space otherwise their life will be miserable.
I can safely say that all the dullness associated with typical North American life stems from people's demand for excessively large living space. A coworker of mine actually move to Saskatchewan just in order to be able to buy a house he dreams of. It is completely nuts to me.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
