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BMW 320d has 170hp and 400Nm, it's a regular 3 series and gets the same mileage both as a sedan and a wagon, converted to US Gallons, it gets over 60 Mpg at 70 Mph. The efficient dynamics version of the same car has 10 less Hp, but gets mildly better Mpg and pollutes less.
The BMW 520d only gets mildly worse figures with a lot more space.
So there's one that's 4 cylindered, has plenty of power, decent size, in US Gallons.
And is that sold in the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA? Also it lacks the tech the Prius offers, LED lights, solar roof etc etc..its a bare bones BMW...
We get the 335d, which is like a performance diesel ala a performance hybrid.
And is that sold in the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA? Also it lacks the tech the Prius offers, LED lights, solar roof etc etc..its a bare bones BMW...
We get the 335d, which is like a performance diesel ala a performance hybrid.
Uh... wtf? No, it's not a bare bones BMW, it's as well equipped as you want it to be, like any other BMW you can buy it bare bones OR well equipped. Engine size does not dictate equipment level.
And no it's not sold in the US, for god knows what reason, which is why I didn't quote that part of your post, what I was commenting on was your illusion that only tiny 3 cylinder hatchbacks can match the Prius.
BMW matches the Prius and pass it, with decent margin, all while producing significantly more power.
My comment was directed at the fact that in the United States (which represents 99% of this forum) the Prius is one of the most efficient choices. I have expounded on the Prius' demerits before in several posts and I don't think anyone would peg me as being a Toyota fanboy or Prius lover, but give credit where it is do.
Forget the social statement the car makes and let it stand on it's own merits and it is a pretty good car. Size wise it slots directly between a compact and a midsize. It also slots there in price. It gets better MPG than just about any car on U.S. roads. However, it is the epitomy of car as appliance.
In that light, it really isn't much of a value versus many of the other efficient appliances that are out there and cost less. Folks like Randy will make the argument it has more "tech", but that really isn't true as most of the features folks love to rattle on about are only available as expensive options or are only standard on the higher end models. Sure, if you want to buy a $25k - $30k Prius you can get some of those cool tech features, but now the economics are totally blown out of the water versus a cheaper car. From just a pure dollars and cents argument, the Prius is a poor choice. So, my knock on the Prius is the guy who buys one for $25k+ as a commuter car and raves about how much money he saves on gas and how smart of a decision it was. The other knock would be the people who think they have suddenly morphed into Captain Planet because they bought one.
As for diesels in the U.S. it could be done, but it is a bit of a hard sell. Diesel fuel itself carries a 5% - 10% premium nationally. Diesel engines also carry a premium in price versus their gas counterparts, as much as $2k - $3k. Modern clean diesel engines in the U.S. also require more maintenance in the form of urea and DPF's, which add to the total ownership cost. Americans have long been anti-diesel following the horrid attempts at diesel cars by American manufacturers. Existing diesel products do not sell well at all, even with subsidies. Many manufacturers are now introducing gas engines that efficiency is similar to what can be achieved with clean diesels. You have to take into account the fact that U.S. diesel regulations are more strict than even the Euro VI standard that doesn't come into effect until 2014. The U.S. regulates particulate and nitrogen, the Europeans are only concerned with CO2, which is much easier to control. Make the 320d U.S. compliant and you lose about 15% of that efficiency, still good, but not overly stellar.
So, since people will blindly buy a hybrid that never offers a payback on the higher price (there's that brilliant Toyota marketing again), it is hard to convince them that buying a more expensive engine that requires more expensive fuel and will cost more to maintain, will somehow save them money. It is also a really hard sell when we are now talking about the difference in most cases of 40 MPG with current gas engines vs. 50 or 55 MPG in a clean diesel.
I've been a long proponent of the US scrapping its diesel emission standard in favor of the European diesel standard--yes, it's a tradeoff of more NOx, but it also would lower fuel consumption considerably in this country, along with reducing all of the attendant pollution caused by having to produce, refine, and transport all of the extra fuel needed for cars to meet the existing US standard. I think that would be an overall beneficial tradeoff.
All of that said, I'm not anti-hybrid. Those vehicles should be offered and available, as well. Having those choices is good. The new plug-in Prius will make a lot of sense for some drivers. For some other drivers, so would a non-hybrid diesel vehicle with engine start/stop, such as the ones being offered in Europe right now. For other folks, a "pure" diesel vehicle would make the most sense. They all should be available.
Back to the new plug-in Prius--the people it will make the most sense for are people that have 1-20 mile daily commute, who also need an economical vehicle for longer trips. I'm one of those people, but herein lies the problem: My work commuting currently takes about 5 gallons of fuel per month in my 25 mpg city fuel economy vehicle. At even, say, $8 per gallon, that's $40 per month for fuel. My sedan is older, but still has probably 10 years of life left in it. If I traded on a new Prius (and I'm making the assumption that the plug-in wouldn't cost more than the current model, which I'm sure is false--the plug-in will certainly cost more), I would have to bring close to $20K to the table with my trade-in. Assuming that the Prius cost nothing to fuel with electricity (again, a false assumption), at $40 per month in fuel cost savings, it would take me 41+ years just to pay the net acquisition cost of the Prius (ignoring additional registration costs, insurance, interest, etc.). So, for my short commute--which is exactly what the plug-in Prius is designed for--keeping my existing vehicle makes far more economic sense. Now, if I had no vehicle currently, or my current one was total junk, the premium price of the plug-in Prius over a comparable new "conventional" vehicle might make payback sense over time, but it would still take awhile.
Back to the new plug-in Prius--the people it will make the most sense for are people that have 1-20 mile daily commute, who also need an economical vehicle for longer trips. I'm one of those people, but herein lies the problem: My work commuting currently takes about 5 gallons of fuel per month in my 25 mpg city fuel economy vehicle. At even, say, $8 per gallon, that's $40 per month for fuel. My sedan is older, but still has probably 10 years of life left in it. If I traded on a new Prius (and I'm making the assumption that the plug-in wouldn't cost more than the current model, which I'm sure is false--the plug-in will certainly cost more), I would have to bring close to $20K to the table with my trade-in. Assuming that the Prius cost nothing to fuel with electricity (again, a false assumption), at $40 per month in fuel cost savings, it would take me 41+ years just to pay the net acquisition cost of the Prius (ignoring additional registration costs, insurance, interest, etc.). So, for my short commute--which is exactly what the plug-in Prius is designed for--keeping my existing vehicle makes far more economic sense. Now, if I had no vehicle currently, or my current one was total junk, the premium price of the plug-in Prius over a comparable new "conventional" vehicle might make payback sense over time, but it would still take awhile.
Your example is the perfect one of the "total picture". I have posted numbers previously pegging the Prius base model payback versus a similarly optioned Corolla to be over 200k miles with current gas prices. Make the comparison using something more efficient than a Corolla, say a new 40MPG Focus on Cruze and the payback is pushed even further out. However, people still buy Prius' and justify it as the "economical" choice.
The reverse is what is hurting diesel sales. Let's take our Ford Focus. The gas version gets 40 highway. The diesel would get about 55 highway in U.S. trim. The diesel would carry an estimated $2,000 upcharge. Fuel costs about 3.87 for regular and 4.07 for diesel. Over 100k miles, the diesel (including the upcharge) would end up saving you about $500. Making it a break even with every mile beyond 100k would be savings. However, people can't seem to get beyond the upcharge for the same car with a different engine and the higher price of fuel, despite it actually being the more economical choice and a vastly better choice than a standard hybrid.
IMO, the real solution is a hybrid diesel, that would be a massive improvement.
Your example is the perfect one of the "total picture". I have posted numbers previously pegging the Prius base model payback versus a similarly optioned Corolla to be over 200k miles with current gas prices. Make the comparison using something more efficient than a Corolla, say a new 40MPG Focus on Cruze and the payback is pushed even further out. However, people still buy Prius' and justify it as the "economical" choice.
The reverse is what is hurting diesel sales. Let's take our Ford Focus. The gas version gets 40 highway. The diesel would get about 55 highway in U.S. trim. The diesel would carry an estimated $2,000 upcharge. Fuel costs about 3.87 for regular and 4.07 for diesel. Over 100k miles, the diesel (including the upcharge) would end up saving you about $500. Making it a break even with every mile beyond 100k would be savings. However, people can't seem to get beyond the upcharge for the same car with a different engine and the higher price of fuel, despite it actually being the more economical choice and a vastly better choice than a standard hybrid.
IMO, the real solution is a hybrid diesel, that would be a massive improvement.
I especially agree with the last sentence, though the diesels sold in Europe with engine start/stop come so close to hybrid economy without the additional complexity that I'm not sure a diesel hybrid would pencil out for most applications.
The one long-term thing that makes me think that we should be looking at diesels much more favorably in this county is the fact that we already have the technology to synthesize diesel fuel from coal. Though our domestic coal reserves are not limitless, and fuel refined from it won't be cheap, it will likely become the most economical domestically available fossil-based motor vehicle fuel within a few years. Also, unlike oil, we do have substantial reserves of low-sulphur coal in this country, whereas a lot of our remaining oil reserves are sour, high sulphur crude.
The one long-term thing that makes me think that we should be looking at diesels much more favorably in this county is the fact that we already have the technology to synthesize diesel fuel from coal. Though our domestic coal reserves are not limitless, and fuel refined from it won't be cheap, it will likely become the most economical domestically available fossil-based motor vehicle fuel within a few years. Also, unlike oil, we do have substantial reserves of low-sulphur coal in this country, whereas a lot of our remaining oil reserves are sour, high sulphur crude.
So, what it really comes down to is the United States adopting a realistic and sustainable energy policy....I won't hold my breath, lol.
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IMO, the real solution is a hybrid diesel, that would be a massive improvement.
I would definitely consider a diesel hybrid.
I wonder why the environmentalists aren't getting behind bio-diesel? The Prius still relies on fossil fuels, whereas bio-diesel is a renewable resource.
I wonder why the environmentalists aren't getting behind bio-diesel? The Prius still relies on fossil fuels, whereas bio-diesel is a renewable resource.
Environmentalists are very much against bio-fuels. The argument is that the total carbon footprint of farming the feed stock, harvesting it, refining it and then distributing it, may actually be WORSE for the environment than simply burning fossil fuels. Studies go both ways for and against that claim.
Personally I think bio-fuels (as currently produced) are a waste of time and can never become a true replacement for fossil fuels. However, some of the other processes being developed, like algae seem to be rather promising with none of the drawbacks of agricultural based bio-fuels.
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No, not at all. Nothing wrong with sharing opinions while respecting others' without sounding like a complete D-bag like you do in almost every post.
