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what egopop failed to point out is that the brake and the transmission selector are separate computers. What do you really think that BOTH of these computers going haywire at the exact same time? Just about nil. So you can always select neutral in a prius and stop it.
I will concede that you certainly have a large amount of automotive knowledge. Anyone that's built and raced GN's certainly knows their fair share. However, cars today tend to be more about the computers then the mechanicals. I think you would admit that you have no idea exactly how a Prius works or what each component does beyond a general understanding.
With that said, it seems some people think that the Prius' brakes are controlled by a computer. This is and isn't true. The brakes themselves are mechanical and vacuum assisted just like on any other car. The difference in the Prius is that a computer has the ability to modulate the brakes to control the regenerative braking. On top of that the car of course has ABS, traction and stability control which allows the computer to use the brakes, but again that is no different than any other vehicle. The ABS system is what the current Prius recall is all about (completely seperate from gas pedals and floormats) as it has a tendency to get confused when going over large bumps or uneven road surfaces.
The transmission selector is fully electronic.
The other misconception is that all of these systems are somehow unrelated or controlled by different computers. That would be a fallacy. The Prius uses a central ECM that communicates to multiple smaller modules that control individual systems. This is no different than is found on most newer cars. However, all of the sub-systems are controlled by and linked to the central ECM. It is possible (and proven by the University of Ohio's test) that a short that causes unintended acceleration can have a cascade effect on the system. Toyota rebukes this as being impossible in the real world, but it is possible.
How the HELL is the computer going to stop you from reaching down and shifting into neutral? Good gosh, has every driver in this country gone insane???
Do a little bit of research and you will find that all of these components; brakes, shifter and the accelerator have no mechanical linkages. As I stated in my earlier post, they are in fact computer controlled. As I stated in that post it appears that turning the vehicle off may also be controlled by the computer. If this is the case, then yes, a major computer malfunction may be able to cause this problem.
Whether this problem is legit or not I personally would not want all of these things controlled by a computer. Even mechanically controlled acceleration systems have return springs so if the mechanical linkage to the throttle pedal breaks or comes loose the vehicle would not be stuck in wide open throttle. What is the precaution if the computer malfunctions and the throttle pedal will not work or the computer controlled brake pedal or the computer controlled shifter? I have not read of one yet.
I will concede that you certainly have a large amount of automotive knowledge. Anyone that's built and raced GN's certainly knows their fair share. However, cars today tend to be more about the computers then the mechanicals. I think you would admit that you have no idea exactly how a Prius works or what each component does beyond a general understanding.
With that said, it seems some people think that the Prius' brakes are controlled by a computer. This is and isn't true. The brakes themselves are mechanical and vacuum assisted just like on any other car. The difference in the Prius is that a computer has the ability to modulate the brakes to control the regenerative braking. On top of that the car of course has ABS, traction and stability control which allows the computer to use the brakes, but again that is no different than any other vehicle. The ABS system is what the current Prius recall is all about (completely seperate from gas pedals and floormats) as it has a tendency to get confused when going over large bumps or uneven road surfaces.
The transmission selector is fully electronic.
The other misconception is that all of these systems are somehow unrelated or controlled by different computers. That would be a fallacy. The Prius uses a central ECM that communicates to multiple smaller modules that control individual systems. This is no different than is found on most newer cars. However, all of the sub-systems are controlled by and linked to the central ECM. It is possible (and proven by the University of Ohio's test) that a short that causes unintended acceleration can have a cascade effect on the system. Toyota rebukes this as being impossible in the real world, but it is possible.
I am not sure about earlier Prius models but I have read a lot about the 2010 Prius that states that the actual brake pedal is drive by wire such as the throttle pedal. According to what I have read, there is no mechanical link between the pedal and the master cylinder. Apparently the brake system is still hydraulic but the computer decides how much pressure is applied to the brakes, not the force of the pedal being pushed down. If this is true, this is a system I would not want in any of my vehicles.
what egopop failed to point out is that the brake and the transmission selector are separate computers. What do you really think that BOTH of these computers going haywire at the exact same time? Just about nil. So you can always select neutral in a prius and stop it.
I am not sure but from what I have read these are all controlled through the main computer in the vehicle. What I have read did not say these transmissions are electronically controlled like most vehicles but rather computer controlled through the vehicles computer. Supposedly this is one of the things that aids in the driver feeling nearly no shift in the transmission while driving. I have never owned (never will), never drove (may have to one day) and never had the opportunity to work on one of these yet so I do not know for sure. I am simply going by what I have read from many different sources including magazine reviews, Toyota forums and various other web sites.
I read your post about putting the 727 in a Roadrunner into reverse at 40 miles per hour and having no transmission damage. I have a two door hard top 1968 Chrysler Newport that I am almost finished with. The engine is a 383 to which I have added Edelbrock aluminum heads, an Edelbrock Performer RPM intake, a 770 cfm Speed Demon carb., a pretty radical Purple Cam, TTI headers, MSD billet distributor and ignition set up, and other goodies. The car also has the 727 transmission which I had rebuilt. I do most of my own work but I have not rebuilt a transmission by myself as of yet. I guess I will have to take your word on the 727 not being damaged since I have never done it and am not willing to test my transmission by doing this with my car.
I am not sure about earlier Prius models but I have read a lot about the 2010 Prius that states that the actual brake pedal is drive by wire such as the throttle pedal. According to what I have read, there is no mechanical link between the pedal and the master cylinder. Apparently the brake system is still hydraulic but the computer decides how much pressure is applied to the brakes, not the force of the pedal being pushed down. If this is true, this is a system I would not want in any of my vehicles.
That must be something new on the 2010, which is a completely new model (3rd generation of Prius, I believe), not a midlife refreshening. My experience is limited to the 1st and 2nd generation vehicles. Where as far as I know it was still a mechanical linkage to the brakes with the computer being able to take control in the case of ABS, traction/stability control or the regen function.
I do need to agree with you 100% on not wanting even more electronic nannies and controls in cars. I'm still clinging to my manual transmission. The safety systems, like ABS and traction/stability control are great and wouldn't want to not have them, but I still want to have actual control over my car. I personally will continue buying a manual as long as it is offered in the car I need. Regardless of how much the computer does, my left leg can still say no.
I found that the prius's brake system is indeed hydraulic and there is a direct lik from the pedal to the master cylinder.. but they do differ in various way throughout the years and the newer ones have some sort of stroker solenoid to assist in braking.. This is computer controlled by the same main computer but a different circuit then the trans shift.So I guess the jury is still out on whether the brake system is computer controlled bu it is def hydraulic direct link in the early years.
what egopop failed to point out is that the brake and the transmission selector are separate computers. What do you really think that BOTH of these computers going haywire at the exact same time? Just about nil. So you can always select neutral in a prius and stop it.
Except when you can't.
I do appreciate though you presenting the Toyota spokeshole side of the argument. Is your office in the Toyota USA P.R. department in the Toyota US HQ in Torrance? Or are you guys located somewhere else?
When does the latest recall fix go into effect (50 pound boat anchor + 100 feet of 10,000 lb. rated cable)?
"Just about nil" =/= "always" nor does it equal 0. And sure, it may be "just about nil", but so are, what, the few hundred, possibly thousand, reported cases of unintended acceleration in various Toyota models? Out of say ten million vehicles? 1,000/10,000,000 = .0001 i.e. .01% or "just about nil". Of course, the minimum 52 deaths attributed thus far to UTAS (Unintended Toyota Acceleration Syndrome) is even closer to nil.
except when you *refuse* to is more like it.. Listen to the info again and see where this guy refused to listen and choose neutral.
yea I am Mr. Toyoda. lol. I have nothing to do with Toyota.. I just being the devils advocate I am just an engineer who knows better, that all. And I deal with frivolous lawsuits at work so have experience with them
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delron
Except when you can't.
I do appreciate though you presenting the Toyota spokeshole side of the argument. Is your office in the Toyota USA P.R. department in the Toyota US HQ in Torrance? Or are you guys located somewhere else?
When does the latest recall fix go into effect (50 pound boat anchor + 100 feet of 10,000 lb. rated cable)?
"Just about nil" =/= "always" nor does it equal 0. And sure, it may be "just about nil", but so are, what, the few hundred, possibly thousand, reported cases of unintended acceleration in various Toyota models? Out of say ten million vehicles? 1,000/10,000,000 = .0001 i.e. .01% or "just about nil". Of course, the minimum 52 deaths attributed thus far to UTAS (Unintended Toyota Acceleration Syndrome) is even closer to nil.
For me, pushbutton start + automatic trans + electronic throttle = sale proof car.
But I am a hardcore old car guy, and prefer a stickshift anyway.
I do suspect that incompetent driving has played a role in most of these crashes. It's a damn shame but Joe Sixpack anymore has very poor driving skills and almost no wrenching skills. And driving skills I'm probably only hitting part of the problem - so many guys hardly know what they need to do to handle a "situation", they don't know the answer to the question in written format, but if you teach them that there is still the need to practice the skill of *implementing* "how to do it" and then beyond that the even more basic layer of needing to hang up the cell phone, put the drink in the cup holder, and "pay attention, dammit!"
Guys from my Dad's generation could pretty much all drive a stickshift, change a flat, drive in mud or snow, and many could and did tune their own cars, a few would even rebuild their own engines, literally pulling the engine with a chain hoist hung from a big shade tree. Most guys nowadays not only can't do any of this stuff, they are so clueless they are not even embarrassed that they can't and don't!
Thus we have Toyotas that can outsmart and overcome the pseudo-driver.
I have so many stories from riding/instructing with average everyday people on the racetrack at speed. I've probably been in car with around 10000 people I guess. I've actually had jackasses try to answer their cellphone and dig it out of their pocket at over 100 mph on a racetrack. I've had other people go to hit the brakes and plunge the gas instead, screaming they are on the brakes and I've had to physically use my left hand and rip their leg off the pedal. One clown had a slight bit of oversteer on a wet track that was easily manageable and screamed and let go completely of the steering wheel and I reached over and steered with my left hand. ETC.
Most people today are clueless about driving and what to do in emergency situations. They have no concept of vehicle dynamics and are even unfamiliar with basics as to what ABS even is. And I'd say for most they are just uneducated and uninformed, no one ever taught them anything. There are a select few that just don't have the facilities upstairs to comprehend driving a car.
I have plenty of experience pushing Toyota road cars to their limit on the track and well, IMHO they are junk. Put any Toyota up against it's competitors dynamically and it will finish last. I also can see the quality has gone downhill over 20 years and there is no thought to any of their design.
But someone made a good point yesterday I read and that the people that drive and buy Toyotas are not car people. A car is like a toaster to them. They are not involved drivers and have no connection or interest in driving. Hence an increased likelihood of people behind the wheel that have no clue what they are doing.
Knowing how bad Toyota's design and quality has gone to the toilet, sure I can believe that there could be a problem with their software and I know their floormats are clumsy.
But like in the this case, I'm not buying all of it. Apparently this problem goes many quite a few years yet all the sudden this became a problem late last year? That the same cars such as Camrys and Priuses are sold overseas and no problems have happened there? And that like this guy in California the story is constantly contradicting and changing? Sorry I just don't buy it all and a lot of it is lack of attention to detail on the part of the drivers and angling for lawsuits.
Let's not forget that Audi got royally screwed by 60 minutes back in 1986. Ruined their brand for years here in the USA and it was found the whole thing was rigged by 60 minutes. By the time Audi was vindicated several years later, it was almost too late for them, the damage had been done. ABC was just caught rigging Toyotas to do the same thing(see jalopnik and autoblog for details).
I think this is just the latest media/lawyer created frenzy to make money and the public is eager to drink the koolaid and share in the payout and latest thing to make hysterical noise about.
If the guy were faking it, it takes a lot of guts to purposly rear end a police car at high speeds. That's how he stopped, he rear ended a fast moving police car and the police car stopped him. If he were faking it, it'd be pretty hard to go through with actually hitting the police car. He was risking his life to fake it...
It's not dramatic at all. I've done driver training with Crown Vics and have bumped and been bumped nose to tail and vice versa at 100 mph and if you needed to slow someone down if done properly by the officer, it really is no big deal. The process would not involve the Prius driver slamming into the Crown Vic.
Unfortunately, most people have seen too many movies and tv shows.
Now if the CHP had PITted the guy then it would have been more of a show.
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lol. I have nothing to do with Toyota.. I just being the devils advocate 
I am just an engineer who knows better, that all. And I deal with frivolous lawsuits at work so have experience with them
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