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I think you and I will have to disagree on both Politics, Economics and the delicate topic of tipping.
If we continue that topic we will probably get beat up on, it's too off topic...and then the P&C forum wackos will see this and start posting here and when that happens everything goes downhill. But it's good to have a brief debate about it in a civil manner.
Lets get back to tipping. I think you might find some resteraunt workers that prefer the lower salary with tips. Waitressing is hard work, but with tips it also allows them to make a reasonable salary that otherwise they can't make even with a "reseaonable living wage".
If we continue that topic we will probably get beat up on, it's too off topic...and then the P&C forum wackos will see this and start posting here and when that happens everything goes downhill. But it's good to have a brief debate about it in a civil manner.
Lets get back to tipping. I think you might find some resteraunt workers that prefer the lower salary with tips. Waitressing is hard work, but with tips it also allows them to make a reasonable salary that otherwise they can't make even with a "reseaonable living wage".
Both good points. I am enjoying the civility.
For the second paragraph, I had a cocktail waitress friend who put herself through medical school this way.
My son loves living in France and may never come back, though I suspect he will at some point. Still he does embrace the European set-up.
I do not consider Europeans to be stingy. It's just a different mindset.
One thing is for sure. If you are a regular patron, tip well. You WILL be remembered and you WILL benefit sevenfold from that few extra bucks left.
I regularly get "freebies' and ALWAYS get exceptional service from my regular haunts. I'm a 20%+ tipper on entire check, including tax--as long as the service is good of course. That goes for everything from restaurants and bars to service providers.
Location: Big Island- Hawaii, AK, WA where the whales are!
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I love this thread!!! Thank you!!!
I am a server in the high end dining of a town in Alaska. I always try to give all my customers the best service possible. The management also expects that. We have a very nice wine list and seafood and steak menu. We also try to keep the cost of menu down with the rise of fish prices to our customers.
Our market is all tourism. When customers are from Europe or Austrialia you know your going to get luck of the draw when it comes to a tip. Mostly lose. I do understand the statements made and have had the management discussion with the people the owner should pay more to the server not their job. But again when in Rome....It says on the menu parties over 6 people will be charged a 18% graditude. Don't agree with it then get up and leave.
If for any reason I do not feel the customer (any) did not recieve the service required for a 18% tip then I will not include it on the check. If it is 2 adults and 4 kids I am not going to include it also. (Even though they make more of a mess).
My question would be parties less than 6. I understand your culture but ours is yes your tip is my living. No matter how much you argue politics. That is the simple truth. I also have to tip out my hostess minimum $5 each night (two then $10) 20%of my tips to the busser, 10% of total food to kitchen, 5% of total bar costs to bartender. I tip out every night generally almost 40%. Then I am taxed another 10%.
This week not due to service but to culture of customers, one of the servers, an exceptional one, was stiffed on three tables from Europeans. And yes it has happened to me many times. I have decided to put a suggested tip amount 18% for exceptional service guide to include the total with bill. This is not allowed for anyone from the USA because it is understood. As last night for me - it does happen the other way also - on top of the 18% the party decided to include another 28% tip on the bill that was $1000.00. That is a good night!
So do you think this will be taken well or being treated like blackmail to have this tip guide included with bill? I am very interested in your response. This is such a subject like walking on egg shells I would love response. Sorry for the long post.
Generally speaking, the higher the cost of the wine, the more work is done for you. We went out to dinner with another couple last weekend and had three bottles of wine that totaled about $600. One was opened and poured with appetizers, one was decanted then served with dinner, the last was opened and set aside to come to serving temp why we ate. The server made sure our glasses were kept at the right level (not full, that's not how you drink wine) and the sommelier stopped by to check on us and chat a bit a couple of times.
We definitely got more "service" for our wine than the couple at the next table over who ordered a single bottle off the $35 "value" list. We tipped 20% on the tab including the wine, and gave the sommelier $50 as well for his excellent suggestions and assistance.
In the US, servers get taxed on about 8% of their checks whether they are tipped 8% (or more) or not. So to stiff the server on the wine is quite possibly taking money out of their pocket.
Given that you're paying four times what the wine is worth, I'd feign cordiality and make a brief conversation were I in your servers' position myself.
I prefer the European restaurant system. I'll often pay a somewhat higher price, especially in the UK, but I know my server is earning a proper wage. If I kick them 5%, they're thrilled. In the US, I tip 10% at my favourite places. I consider my (very) frequent custom a tip in and of itself.
nwcountrygal, what a nice post. It was quite educational for me since you explained the %s so clearly. Thank you.
In my opinion, some people don't tip bc they simply don't know they are supposed to, and others just don't agree with the fact that one has to have an income supplemented by tips as opposed to get a good salary from the employer; regardless, waiting tables (and dealing with the public in general) is no easy task, so I think it should be rewarded appropriately.
I still stand by my initial point that tipping should be considered an absolute extra for exceptional service, but I understand that every culture is different. I would (and I do!) tip generously when the service is great, and was a regular customer at a particular restaurant for years (I moved elsewhere), not only bc of the food but bc our server was one of the nicest people I ever knew. He was a pleasant person from day one, even when he did not know whether he was going to get a tip, a compliment to the manager, or just a smile and a "thank you".
Yes, I think it is somehow pushy to include the tipping suggestion, but pushy or not it is the way it is done in some places and it would be nice if people understood it in a positive way as opposed to "if you don't tip I will spit on your food" ... I hope this is very uncommon, and honestly I find it hard to believe a few servers would do that and end up creating such a bad reputation for themselves that would shun patrons completely.
I would just be happy to tip for great service every time (as opposed to what people said about me being "cheap"... I was raised as to reward people who go the extra mile anyway, no matter what job they do, from doctors to shoemakers, it's a family thing) but I would also be happy to know that servers are paid decent wages without having to rely on patrons, even if my meal were more expensive.
Given that you're paying four times what the wine is worth, I'd feign cordiality and make a brief conversation were I in your servers' position myself.
Good point about the wine markup.
In my experience in Europe, they just tack on a couple euros, that I can handle.
Here in North America, even if it is merely double the regular retail price, it is a real turn-off for me.
I'll happily pay a corkage fee if a restaurant offers that service.
I do genuinely think that many people in Europe do not know they are supposed to tip, never mind 20%. And I suspect the rest of us who do tip albeit with gritted teeth. I basically know to know that my going out costs in the US are going to be at least 15% more than advertised on the bill for example.
I think a tip guide will be considered blackmail but I suppose at least people will not have the excuse that they didn't know... And those who still don't want to tip, presumable won't.
To be fair some places in London now actually add it to the bill ( up to 17.5 %)so the tipping culture is changing at least in the UK as well. Of course as the waiters are paid a decent wage the compunction is not there and there is no emotional blackmail.
I must admit that any restaurant which adds the tip automatically for us gets it taken off as my husband finds it incredibly rude and a big assumption on the part of the restaurant.
I will carry on tipping in the US ( and Canada) but hope that one day employer will do their job and pay their own employees themselves and afford them decent living conditions. To me it is not about being stingy, it is about bringing on a more equitable system.
I also wonder why many other jobs do not expect tips... I suspect there are a lot of terribly paid jobs in the US, with dreadful work conditions so why is waitressing , house-keeping considered so different ?
I must admit being baffled at the idea of paying someone for good service. Isn't good service what you expect when you go out to a restaurant ? A basic so to speak ? The same goes for hotel house-keeping. If a hotel room is not going to be clean ( the assumption being that you pay for your housekeeper cleaning it well) then what on earth is a hotel room about ? I remain baffled. Good service is not an extra. It is a basic service which should be included in the price.
Americans always moan that prices in Europe are so expensive, from extensive experience eating out in the US once you have added the expected tip is pretty much the same as anywhere else.
But it is a certain way here, and the people who complain about it and don't comply are just as pathetic as the "jerk americans" who do as they please.
Maybe the US should change the way it does business.
Was not this cruise in the Gallapagos?
I am from the US and I do not like the way that they do business. Why does the customer have to pay the salary of a server? They do not work for me.
You're post covered alot of ground and I don't think anyone can respond fully without getting way off topic. But I will try in a quick summation: You topic concentrates on "society". This is something Europeans will never understand - The U.S. was formed as a social, financial, and political experiment - one in which the individual was responsible for society, not one in which society (the government) was responsible for the individual. Thus, the principles for the next 250 years was layed out - hard individual work brings rewards. The concept of the tip, for workers in some service areas, simply reflects this principle. The best and hardest workers get the best tips. For these workers I would venture to guess they absotely do NOT want a straight salary and would prefer tips. Many workers make more money on tips then they do their salary.
It's not about kindness, or lack of. American's donate more via private donations (individuals and corporations)then any country in the world. And please don't offer those studies saying America is last place in donations - those studies look at public government funding. Flawed and innacurate - our government gives it's private citizens the liberty of choosing what charitable organization to give funding to, and we deduct from our taxes. In your country the government collects taxes first and they alone decide what charity or social organization to give funding to. Tell me what you would prefer - the government deciding who to help? Or the people?
So we have two different outlooks on society - political, financial, social. I am not saying one is better than the other, both system has flaws, but they are different and what works here will not work in England, and what works there will not work here. But I leave you with this - American has been undergoing this social/political experiment for 250 years (with maybe some misguidance the last few years), England has remained a constitutional monarcy. Which county has prospered? Brittania was the ruler of the World 250 years ago. And how are they now?
Garbage.
How about the homeless in the US?
The I have mine, forget you mentality?
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... I hope this is very uncommon, and honestly I find it hard to believe a few servers would do that and end up creating such a bad reputation for themselves that would shun patrons completely.
... I was raised as to reward people who go the extra mile anyway, no matter what job they do, from doctors to shoemakers, it's a family thing) but I would also be happy to know that servers are paid decent wages without having to rely on patrons, even if my meal were more expensive. 
