Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Travel
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 12-08-2023, 12:35 PM
 
Location: Tricity, PL
61,745 posts, read 87,194,708 times
Reputation: 131746

Advertisements

High Speed Rail Is Booming In China to.
It won't be booming in the US - not in our lifetime, not anytime soon, probably never.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 12-09-2023, 01:46 PM
 
Location: Great Britain
27,194 posts, read 13,482,880 times
Reputation: 19524
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf View Post
High-Speed Rail is awesome in Europe and is, obviously, a major success. But it's not just Europe, HSR is sprouting up all over the world from China to Indonesia, Morocco and even South Africa.

Funny how HSR is the craze and success all over the world but, somehow, here in the world's superpower, people are convinced it can't work... Why?


Whilst HSR investment is welcome, so is recent investment in sleeper services such as Nightjet and other such services, whilst ferry services are also important as are national and international coach (bus) services.

I would take a night ferry or sleep train (both with personal cabins) over sitting in an airport lounge in the middle of the night waiting for some delayed flight.

Cleaner emissions from cars, buses and aircraft are also important and these forms of transport are also important in terms of future European travel options.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-09-2023, 08:10 PM
 
31,927 posts, read 27,007,597 times
Reputation: 24824
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProf View Post
High-Speed Rail is awesome in Europe and is, obviously, a major success. But it's not just Europe, HSR is sprouting up all over the world from China to Indonesia, Morocco and even South Africa.

Funny how HSR is the craze and success all over the world but, somehow, here in the world's superpower, people are convinced it can't work... Why?
Prior to WWII USA had the fastest, safest and most luxurious passenger rail system in world.

By 1930's there were steam locomotives that could easily reach cruising speeds >100 mph (up to 120 mph in some cases).

It was US railroads and locomotive manufactures who invented much of the early technology that allowed trains to run faster that later formed HSR in Japan and France.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milwaukee_Road_class_A

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsy...road_class_GG1


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9w48Bqq1JmE

Post WWII things just went to heck far as passenger rail was concerned.

Focus of nation and most of populace was on air travel (especially after airlines replaced prop planes with jets for domestic travel) and of course the automobile.

Trains and technology were sold overseas and very little was done in terms of advancing passenger rail travel. Large part of this was there simply wasn't enough demand and with Amtrak basically being a government funded RR it had to watch costs.

Now USA is playing catch up to Europe and Asia. It will take *trillions* to build out systems remotely resembling HSR in much of world. Even then due to topography and other issues USA will largely end up with faster passenger service (with diesels as power on point) at speeds of about 130mph. That's about the limit diesels can go for passenger service so that's that.

Unlike Europe and Asia USA does not have huge amount of experience in building fast electric powered trainsets/locomotives. PRR's GG1 as the last and what is being built today for Amtrak largely comes from European companies (Siemens, Alstom and Bombardier (now part of Alstom). They may have plants in USA to satisfy ”buy American” lobby, but technology and other bits all largely come from Europe.

Post WWII Europeans never fell out of love with rail travel way Americans did. European nations spent vast sums rebuilding their rail networks and rolling stock destroyed or worn out during war. Huge amounts have been invested since to bring about rail you see today in Europe.

One huge reason why passenger rail in USA lags behind Europe or Asia is quite simple. Amtrak owns comparatively little of it's own ROW, otherwise it must move on tracks owned by freight railroads.

Where Amtrak does not own ROW everything from scheduling to delays and other matters put them at mercy of freight railroads.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQTjLWIHN74
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-10-2023, 01:22 AM
 
4,537 posts, read 5,110,322 times
Reputation: 4858
Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit View Post
This 'world's superpower,' has a LOT of free choice.

That is not the case in many countries with HSR. (Their fuel and vehicles (taxes) probably cost 2x our 'discounted' rates. )

USA has the 'Gimmies'. They're not waiting for no stink'n train, then get to their destination and have to WALK , or take public transportation.

Door-to-to comfort, convenience, and treatment is the USA demand.
Free choice to be brainwashed by the wealthy power barons, such as Detroit and Big Oil... obviously.

Ah, it's great to be free, right?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-10-2023, 06:26 AM
 
Location: Dayton OH
5,766 posts, read 11,381,748 times
Reputation: 13576
One of the biggest obstacles to running any train (passenger or freight) at higher speeds in the US or elsewhere is the condition of the tracks and rail bed. The tracks need to be smooth, level and aligned for trains to run at speeds that the locomotives are capable of given the load they are pulling. If the tracks are not in good condition, the train will wobble excessively side to side and can derail, especially with a curve.

If you are riding in a train and hear loud "clickity-clack" every few seconds, that is a sign the tracks are not smooth welded to form a seamless rail. There is a whole science to seamless rail design, but this is just as essential to any medium to high speed rail system as having electrified locomotives or integrated HSR trains. Seamless rail is almost non-existent on US freight rail lines, making them inadequate for any sort of HSR service. In contrast, most countries in Europe that have medium to high speed rail trains have been building seamless rail or converting existing older rail beds to seamless rail for decades. That is why many countries are capable of running regional non-HSR trains at 90-100 mph on long straight routes.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-10-2023, 07:14 AM
 
Location: Great Britain
27,194 posts, read 13,482,880 times
Reputation: 19524
The problem with high speed lines, is that they are very expensive to build and even when complete over 90% of them don't make a profit, so have to be continually heavily subsidised by tax payers and this includes lines in Europe.

Many high speed lines are also political vanity projects in order to garner support for politicians.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvdCFEit8ho
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-10-2023, 03:28 PM
 
31,927 posts, read 27,007,597 times
Reputation: 24824
Quote:
Originally Posted by recycled View Post
One of the biggest obstacles to running any train (passenger or freight) at higher speeds in the US or elsewhere is the condition of the tracks and rail bed. The tracks need to be smooth, level and aligned for trains to run at speeds that the locomotives are capable of given the load they are pulling. If the tracks are not in good condition, the train will wobble excessively side to side and can derail, especially with a curve.

If you are riding in a train and hear loud "clickity-clack" every few seconds, that is a sign the tracks are not smooth welded to form a seamless rail. There is a whole science to seamless rail design, but this is just as essential to any medium to high speed rail system as having electrified locomotives or integrated HSR trains. Seamless rail is almost non-existent on US freight rail lines, making them inadequate for any sort of HSR service. In contrast, most countries in Europe that have medium to high speed rail trains have been building seamless rail or converting existing older rail beds to seamless rail for decades. That is why many countries are capable of running regional non-HSR trains at 90-100 mph on long straight routes.
Vast amount of US rail network is owned by freight railroads and their tracks are perfectly fine for that sort of service. You aren't going to get a freight RR to upgrade their ROW to suit faster trains much less HSR unless you make it worth the bother and expense.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-10-2023, 04:18 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
19,029 posts, read 14,216,690 times
Reputation: 16752
Contrary to popular myth - or careful slanting - Americans didn't abandon rail passenger service, for the convenience of the automobile. Rail (passenger service) was deliberately killed off, starting in the early 20th century.

Consider these facts : steel wheel on steel rail has the lowest co:efficient of rolling resistance, and a 20:1 advantage over pneumatic tire on pavement. In other words, it take 20 times as much fuel / energy to move cargo and passengers by non-rail means on land. In addition, the carrying capacity of a single track is equivalent to 9 lanes or more of paved roads. Rail rolling stock and tracks are far more durable than their competition. And best of all, rail ways can be engineered to be electric powered, without the need of expensive and heavy batteries. In short, electric traction rail is the most efficient, durable, scalable and safest mode of land transportation (barring an engineering breakthrough).

SO WHAT HAPPENED?
"Certain interests" did not like the fact that rail dominated 90% of transportation, back in the early 1900s. It stifled sales of "other vehicles." And the fact that most if not all urban and interurban rail was powered by electricity, not petroleum, also annoyed "certain interests." Most towns across America had electric traction rail systems, that also funded "Trolley parks" that became Amusement parks.
But the killer fact that the rail companies were rich and powerful and thus rivals to the rising political power base, insured their demise by collusion.
In short, the envious government penalized rail and subsidized their competition.

Ex: Rail rights of way were over taxed, while "public roads" were subsidized by the taxpayers for the benefit of the motorists. Federal regulations are medieval and not based on engineering. America had faster trains in the 1920s and 1930s, than today - running on steam !
In addition, local governments routinely capped fares, while boosting taxes and expenses (forcing rail companies to maintain any paved road their tracks touched). This forced the rail companies to slowly decay and decline or sell out to the collectivists (like NYC). But the worst was a conspiracy of "certain interests" in manufacturing, fuel, tires, pavement, and so forth, combined with government officials, to scuttle urban rail and replace them with stinky buses. For more info on the scandalous conspiracy, look in the National City Line lawsuit.

Heavy rail passenger service also got "scalped" when government ended the mail by rail contracts in 1967. The irony is that the faster rail based mail was replaced by the slower truck-air-truck mode, that resulted in higher expenses and "snail mail."
(The postal rail cars could do pickups and drop offs, in transit, sort and cancel letters enroute, and provided overnight mail service in many markets... for 4 cents a letter.)
The once richest private rail road company, the Pennsylvania Railroad, went bankrupt by 1972, and was broken up into Conrail and Amtrak (A federally owned corporation - no kidding).
. . . .
If all taxes and subsidies were abolished, America would be "back on track" in a New York Minute. Folks will naturally gravitate to the most efficient and practical form of transportation.

But as long as we think we need government meddling, we will have pork barrel rail boondoggles and partisan skewed systems.


: : : : :

REFERENCES IN SUPPORT
Taken for a Ride (documentary)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-I8GDklsN4
....
http://la.curbed.com/archives/2012/0..._monorails.php
http://www.monorails.org/tMspages/LA1963.html
In 1963, Alweg proposed to the city of Los Angeles a monorail system that would be designed, built, operated and maintained by Alweg. Alweg promised to take all financial risk from the construction, and the system would be repaid through fares collected. The City Council rejected the proposal in favor of no transit at all. (thanks to Standard Oil)

“A former Alweg engineer once told me that there was much excitement for the proposal at the time, that is until Standard Oil got involved. Practically overnight support for the project disappeared amongst LA politicians.”
....
The Streetcar Conspiracy
The StreetCar Conspiracy
....
The Great American Streetcar Scandal
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_City_Lines
We can thank General Motors, Firestone Tire, Standard Oil of California and Phillips Petroleum for their successful destruction of electric traction rail, and the imposition of our dependency on petroleum and automobiles.



INTERURBANS and GM RAIL KILLER
PBS HISTORY DETECTIVES CLEVELAND ELECTRIC CAR
History Detectives S04E10
Season 4, Episode 10
Delves into the collusion between local politicians and the conspiracy to replace streetcars with buses.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_7E9SLXVV0

Transcript - -
http://www-tc.pbs.org/opb/historydet...ectric_car.pdf

Last edited by jetgraphics; 12-10-2023 at 04:39 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-10-2023, 04:50 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
19,029 posts, read 14,216,690 times
Reputation: 16752
Another reason for America's lackluster rail - Gubmint regulations.

Quality of regulations
“In the USA, trains like the type 411 EMU are not allowed to operate. US regulations require a very high carbody strength for political reasons, which adds several tons of weight to a vehicle. If this mass is added to a European tilting EMU or DMU, it is no longer safe to operate at 11.8 inches of unbalanced superelevation, because the maximum safe axleload is exceeded.

The Acela Express is built to these strength standards. It is nearly double as heavy as European or Japanese tilting trains. Instead of restricting the axleload to 16 tons or less, the powercars weigh 25 tons per axle. No safety authority would allow values like those for the German 411 or 610 for this train, because the forces at the wheel-rail contact point would be too high for safe operation.

As a result, the "Acela Express" loses about half an hour between New York and Boston, compared to best practice in tilting train usage. (It also loses at least half an hour, compared to the calculations of US railroad engineers in the 1960s.) If this half hour of running time from New York to Boston needs to be cut away by infrastructure investment instead, a three-digit number of millions in additional public investment will be needed at least. A similar situation will be found with almost all upgrade projects for curvy track.”
- end of excerpt -

An electric multiple unit or EMU is a multiple-unit train consisting of self-propelled carriages using electricity as the motive power.
In contrast, a DMU uses diesel engines.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-10-2023, 05:16 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
19,029 posts, read 14,216,690 times
Reputation: 16752
If you believe the propaganda and disinformation that rail is “too archaic” or “inconvenient” or “needs public subsidy” then stop here, and save your time.
- - -
Historically speaking, “rail” roads predated the invention of the steam locomotive. Horse drawn wagons and carts, especially in mines, were found to operate more efficiently when the wheels were limited to rails, and not plowing through mud. In time, steel rails and steel wheels (or steel shod wooden wheels) became “the” way.

Big locomotives found a ready market in longer distance transport, but in cities, where carriages were small, and stops were often, a steam locomotive, no matter how small, was just not cost effective. Thus horse drawn carriages on tracks were the preferred mode.

But the limits of horsepower (and the waste product - manure) led the desire for a “better way.” In the late 1800s, electric traction rail was developed and adopted as the urban and suburban rail transport of choice. (Steam railroads still dominated the “heavy” freight and long distance routes). Between 1890 - 1920, thousands of miles / kilometers of track were laid in hundreds of cities, which not only involved acquiring the land for rights of way, separate from the heavy rail lines, but required the construction of electrical power companies - which often became the local public utilities serving the non-rail customers.

All this was not done in a vacuum nor without conflict of interests. The Big Rail companies were filthy rich and wielded a lot of influence. There was much ire directed at them. And the government, itself, was not immune. Consider that the Pennsylvania Railroad Company (“Pennsy”) was the world’s largest & richest corporation, with a budget second only to the federal government. Imagine the whole rail system’s clout.

Enter, the little electric streetcars / trolleys. They often chose track gauges that were incompatible with the standard gauge, just so the BIG RAIL companies wouldn’t poach their rights of way. And to top it off, suburban transit companies often undercut the fare price between cities, further annoying the steam locomotive railroad companies.

At first, fledgling urban rail companies steadily expanded service, and even funded “Trolley Parks” (which later became electrified Amusement parks) to boost ridership on week-ends and holidays. Then government interference and meddling started to ruin things.

Biggest problem : fare caps while boosting taxes. Most municipalities controlled how much the private companies could charge to “use” the public rights of way for their “private enterprise.” But when they incrementally boosted taxes (especially after the imposition of the income tax in 1913), the rail companies were squeezed. With no way to pass increased costs to their passengers, they had to cut spending, which invariably meant a cut in expansion and maintenance. Thus began the slow decline, leading to collapse or takeover by others. Thank you, government! Fare caps were political plums to entice the electorate, but they helped kill off the most efficient form of urban transportation.

Collusion between government and the competition was the next problem. One can find many “interesting” spins on the infamous National City Lines conspiracy case. The fact remains, that GM, Standard Oil, Firestone Tires, and a host of other special interests helped create and fund a shell corporation entrusted with the task of buying up “struggling” rail companies, and rapidly tearing them down, in favor of buses... burning oil... using tires ... etc, etc. And there were plenty of bribed politicians that aided and abetted the conversion - for the “good of the public.” [/sarcasm]

Consider that taxpayers fund “public roads” used by the Road Hegemony, while the rail companies not only had to pay for building and maintaining their private rights of way, they had to pay property taxes, as well. And sometimes, those taxes were (ahem) a bit unjust.

Again, Big Rail was often disliked, and local governments felt justified in soaking them for all manner of taxes. (A World War II era excise tax of 15% on passenger rail travel survived until 1962 !)

Lastly, the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA), was empowered by CONgress, to wreck the rails. How can one make such an outlandish claim? Check the facts. American railroad companies were required to comply with rules that had no basis in engineering nor safety. Union rules were insane. Car bodies were double the necessary weight. Superelevation rules limited the velocity in curves. A glaring fact - the European locomotives used on AMTRAK can’t run as fast in America as they can in Europe. FRA Speed classes insured that trains of the 1920s and 1930s were FASTER than modern trains.

To be fair (fare?), there were other contributing factors - infiltration by banksters who gutted some lines - the Spanish Flu epidemic that cut ridership - union strikes that would reduce ridership for months at a time... and the end of federal contracts for “mail by rail” in 1967.

The net result from a covert interest group colluding with government was to stymie any real attempt to restore / rebuild rail as the dominant form of land transport.

You can find many examples of “public subsidized” boondoggles that make NO SENSE - except as a showcase for the nay sayers to point at, and say “Told you so!”

Ex: The Las Vegas monorail that does NOT go to the airport, and therefore is more like a glorified amusement park ride than urban mass transit.

Ex: The Atlanta Light Rail line - 2.7 miles (4.3 km) that’s more for tourism than mass transit. (Ironic, that Atlanta was once the hub and terminus for many railroads, and once had a robust urban rail network.)

Ex: California HSR - an embarrassment of cost overruns, delays, and red tape that will take over 30 years to complete... if ever.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Travel

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top