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Now you are being disingenuous and obtuse. First of all, I have derided no one. I have made a point of not using ad hominem or belittling anyone for what they believe. If you want to believe that paranormal phenomenon is real, believe to your heart's content. My reason for being here is that as a professional scientist, I am offering a mainstream view in a forum that is most assuredly not mainstream. If you think that is some form of derision, then your mind is not as open as you apparently think it is. And finally, I hate repeating myself, but for all those who similarly believe that I am stating something unequivocal, nothing can be further from the truth. As I have stated several times in this thread, I can be persuaded to accept the notion that paranormal phenomenon are real. The problem is that a lot of folks have a low benchmark for accepting the reality of paranormal phenomenon. My benchmark is rather high, and for good reason. All of science requires high benchmarks before making declarations. As has been said repeatedly in the history of science, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The existence of paranormal phenomenon is an extraordinary claim. How can it not be? The evidence for that claim must, of necessity, be extraordinary before the scientific community will ever accept it. This is nothing new. All major discoveries in science are held to the same high standard.
So folks, get busy. Find us the extraordinary evidence. The first one who does will no doubt win a Nobel prize.
again, why are you here? if you are so profoundly ahead of us, why slum it here in the forum with all the kooks? mainstream is merely what most people think. and most people don't think too deeply, unfortunately.
it just seems like trying to start a fire for no good reason. you aren't really out here to ask a question, you are out to impress us with your smug self assertions. most scientists are not in the vanguard and it takes the vanguard to push things forward.
however, i am entirely in agreement with assessment of the low benchmark. although i am interested in paranormal phenomena i am not easily fooled. and i loathe those that are. even if a small percentage of so-called paranormal phenomena cannot be explained by so-called rational science, that small percentage is still something to consider.
its the same with crop circles. many people are fond of saying something like, "95 percent of all crop circles have been shown to be frauds". that's like saying 90 percent of us will never kill anyone in our lifetimes. we don't focus on those, do we? we focus on the ones that do, and even if only ONE of them were found to possess profoundly bizarre and unexplainable traits, that ONE is a fascinating anomaly that should be studied, not derided or discarded.
asking us to prove something to you is a clever ruse to shoot down things that you aren't prepared to believe in. there are people who would deny gravity simply because they can't see it. i agree that the yardstick for 'proving" the paranormal probably doesn't exist- right now. but i believe that science and religion WILL meet. i don't think that anything has to refute the other. obviously specific components of religious thought won't necessarily turn out to make sense scientifically, but the broader idea that we are not alone, that there is more going on under the surface and there is life after death, i think that one day those things WILL be shown to be part of the natural order of things.
the very nature of the paranormal and even the arts is that they are subjective, intuitive, improvable. its like asking someone to prove that something is BEAUTIFUL. how can you prove that? speaking of proofs, proving a negative mathematically and applying that to the world of ideas is, well, i have no words for that. no pun intended. but really, you think that proves that you can prove that something DOES NOT exist? stop being disingenuous yourself.
and...just because i agree that there is a creator does not automatically put me into a camp of people who believe that evolution is a joke and that jesus is gonna come out of the sky. there are gray areas, there are many shades to belief systems. i believe some of the bible is true, and i think the rest is pretty much myth, like Zeus and Hermes. critical thinking flies out the door in a religious context but i have never been prey to that, personally.
there honestly seems to be a disinterest here in seeing subtleties and accepting that perhaps all is not so easily measured as say, a current, or acceleration. its not a black and white world.
again, why are you here? if you are so profoundly ahead of us, why slum it here in the forum with all the kooks? mainstream is merely what most people think. and most people don't think too deeply, unfortunately.
When I said mainstream, I mean mainstream science, and I am sorry to say, most people don't think like mainstream scientists. Most people don't have the education for it.
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Originally Posted by nighthouse
it just seems like trying to start a fire for no good reason.
The search for truth is not a good reason? When did this happen?
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Originally Posted by nighthouse
you aren't really out here to ask a question, you are out to impress us with your smug self assertions.
Are you impressed? If not, then why would you suggest that that is why I am here? If I wanted to impress someone, there are much better forums for that. Now if you are saying that I am trying to impress UPON people the importance of high standards in any type of research, then you would be right.
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Originally Posted by nighthouse
most scientists are not in the vanguard and it takes the vanguard to push things forward.
That is true. Do you know anyone unarguably in the vanguard of science who is conducting research into the paranormal?
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Originally Posted by mighthouse
however, i am entirely in agreement with assessment of the low benchmark.
Finally, we agree on something. That is a start.
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Originally Posted by nighthouse
although i am interested in paranormal phenomena i am not easily fooled. and i loathe those that are. even if a small percentage of so-called paranormal phenomena cannot be explained by so-called rational science, that small percentage is still something to consider.
Why? If it cannot be explained by science, what's the point of trying? My point is that the unexplainable is not inexplicable. If it can be explained at all it can be explained by science. The problem is that so many of these arguments ultimately lead to someone saying that paranormal phenomenon is not within the purview of science, that it is beyond scientific explanation because it is not "of this world". The problem with this sort of argument is that there is no rational means of proving that this argument has any real meaning. It is exactly like creationist arguments that "God did it" with regard to just about anything you care to discuss. The problem is that it gets you nowhere in your search for truth. We can all just sit in our caves and wave our hands around declaring it an unsolvable mystery or we can investigate those mysteries and see where it leads us. Science just happens to be a wonderfully successful tool for conducting those investigations.
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Originally Posted by nighthouse
asking us to prove something to you is a clever ruse to shoot down things that you aren't prepared to believe in.
Ignoring what I have already said on the matter is lazy and dishonest. I can believe anything if it can be scientifically demonstrated to be true. For someone who claims to have high benchmark standards, you certainly seem to be asking me to lower mine. Why should I?
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there are people who would deny gravity simply because they can't see it. i agree that the yardstick for 'proving" the paranormal probably doesn't exist- right now. but i believe that science and religion WILL meet.
I don't, but I don't rule it out, either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nighthouse
i don't think that anything has to refute the other. obviously specific components of religious thought won't necessarily turn out to make sense scientifically, but the broader idea that we are not alone, that there is more going on under the surface and there is life after death, i think that one day those things WILL be shown to be part of the natural order of things.
Of course we are not alone. We are one of millions of species of life on this planet. If you are lonely, try to make friends with one.
Maybe if everyone did that, life on this planet might be less endangered.
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the very nature of the paranormal and even the arts is that they are subjective, intuitive, improvable.
How does the 'very nature of the paranormal', whatever that is, make it improvable?
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its like asking someone to prove that something is BEAUTIFUL. how can you prove that?
If you are suggesting that paranormal phenomenon are not provable, I could not agree more.
Here is the way I see it. Assume that you are a member of a jury charged with deciding the fate of a guy who is accused of murder. Despite the mountain of evidence that the guy is guilty, despite the fact that there exists 25 camera views of the guy committing the murder in the stadium, despite the fact that he admits to murdering the guy and providing his motive, you are the sole hold out in committing him because you believe that there is a miniscule chance that some evidence will be found that will show that he is not guilty.
This is what you are asking me to accept as the reason why I should believe that the paranormal exists. Because you believe that there is the tiniest of fraction of a chance that it does with no evidence to support your belief. You wouldn't do this in any other part of your life, so why believe it in this case?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nighthouse
speaking of proofs, proving a negative mathematically and applying that to the world of ideas is, well, i have no words for that. no pun intended. but really, you think that proves that you can prove that something DOES NOT exist? stop being disingenuous yourself.
Mathematics can prove that lots of solutions do not exist. You mean to tell me that you haven't taken calculus yet?
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Originally Posted by nightouse
and...just because i agree that there is a creator does not automatically put me into a camp of people who believe that evolution is a joke and that jesus is gonna come out of the sky. there are gray areas, there are many shades to belief systems. i believe some of the bible is true, and i think the rest is pretty much myth, like Zeus and Hermes. critical thinking flies out the door in a religious context but i have never been prey to that, personally.
Glad to read that, but it wouldn't matter to me if you did believe. That does not change the fact that we still require a high benchmark for scientific evidence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nighthouse
there honestly seems to be a disinterest here in seeing subtleties and accepting that perhaps all is not so easily measured as say, a current, or acceleration. its not a black and white world.
Black and white has nothing to do with it. It is about conducting high benchmark investigations wherever those investigations lead, and not just taking someone's word for it or jumping to conclusions.
yeah, this thread has lost its ability to amuse me. this guy is just picking and poking and starting flames for the sake of watching things burn. i am learning nothing here and his highhandedness is such a turn off. i imagine you are much the same way in real life. this is not a true debate at all, you just like trying to knock people's beliefs down for the sheer fun of it. which is no fun for the rest of us. you are just slumming. not feeding the slummer anymore. notice what word i didn't use here.
This is directed at the OP.
You obviously don't believe paranormal events happen if you can't figure them out through science, but you should also know, some events DO happen , are very real, but there is no way science could prove, or disprove it.
Case in point;
I want you to read post #9 in the link I am posting here.
The events happened just as I described, though there could never be any scientific evaluation, because one (besides myself ) would have to have been present at the time of the incident regarding the hinge and screws.
One whom fails to put actions to his disbelief blathers to prove nothing.
If one is not interested in finding the truth why bring up the subject ?
One whom puts action to his belief is a step ahead of the ignorant.
If a man really wants to be rich ,he will invest himself in making every move to accomplish it .
Believing the paranormal exists is different, for every person.
exposure,
curiosity,
stress,
fear,
manipulation,
As a Christian raised in a Christian home , seeing God intervene for us was as normal as having a good friend visit once in a while.
When your poor you need help a lot more often, and the miracles are some what common place.
God seems to do things that defy science and medicine and natural law for the fun of it , I think because He can .
Even as much of a believer my dad was ,he would analyze the situation to verify that it was a genuine miracle.
Scoffers have always existed ,always will, dead souls with no hope, don't want any.
However people with faith , get to see and experience some of the coolest stuff and that's why we get excited about it.
The best way to put it is the one does not manipulate God , rather one "Ideally" cooperates with God . I say Ideally , because there are those that use Jesus name with out his instruction ,doing it for their own fame .
These put them selves at odds with God.
Now the nay sayers say one cannot prove by science God is real, but that's like having the intellect of a sponge, demanding rocket science technology .
Science is always developing tools to see or hear or touch what they have not been able to do in the past. Because a plane is beyond ones touch, does not negate it, like the spectrum of light beyond our own vision's capability. Trying to seek a mechanical means to touch an ethereal plane is useless.
You may as well be trying to bail out a boat with a window screen.
Being virtually dead spiritually, the skeptic can't even feel with a sense that is spiritual.
Because some one can feel things spiritually, does not mean they are right with God , certainly demons and spirits, live in that plane, and are not right with God.
Their ( spirits ) knowledge is not God's instruction, and that should be well understood, even though they can be accurate in things beyond one's own environment.Their influence can lead to a distraction away from God, people rarely escape.
Wicked spirits have no interest that one find peace with God.
Knowing God and His influence, Is what Jesus provided his believers, via the Holy Spirit.
In this, one can be obedient to God, in the relationship He intended.
There are many genuine unsolved mysteries in the universe and it is okay to say, "We do not yet know but someday perhaps we will." The problem is that most of us find it more comforting to have certainty, even if it is premature, than to live with unsolved or unexplained mysteries.
*******************
OR to resort to silly notions of the paranormal - which doesn't actually mean anything. If it exists, it is part of this world, and therefore there is nothing "paranormal" about it.
Actually, pretty much everything on that website is true. 95% of all paranormal claims ARE bunk... people are easily deceived and all human observations have to flow through the not so flawless human brain. It's that pesky 5% that is not so easy to just write off...
Science is a great tool for understanding the parts of the world which are accessible by our senses but it's not a flawless end-all for understanding all that is. Science has built-in limits and we are already running into those limits even though we can still see there is more beyond... a perfect example of that is Quantum Mechanics. It's a fool's errand to assume we have all the answers in our textbooks today and in a few hundred years people will laugh at the naivety of today's "scientific knowledge".
It's a handy name to call "the unknown" but ultimately there is no such thing as the "supernatural"... it's only nature we simply don't understand. That does not mean things beyond the scope of human understanding and comprehension don't exist... and while it's silly to interpret the "supernatural" as aliens, spirits, angels, Sasquatch or whatever we get after feeding an incomprehensible "supernatural" event through our cultural lenses, it's equally silly to pretend the real source(s) of the "supernatural" don't exist at all.
obviously this guy is a fly-by-nighter, slumming in this forum to have a belly laugh. good riddance.
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