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I also have a (very good) friend who claims to be an astrologer. He works through the internet and has his own website. Most of what he does is through word of mouth.
We have been friends for a long time and he is part of a group of friends who have analyzed and discussed astrology, tarot, psychics, etc. for many years. The paradox is that he knows that what he is doing is fake and he has admitted such to us. I would never "out" him but much of what I have posted on CD is based on what he has told us. Occasionally, we will ask him if he feels guilty about the deception? The answer is always an emphatic ; No; but I wonder? He started many years ago when he was in college and didn't make allot of money; but enough to pay for beer and pizza on Friday nights.. The site he worked for charged for the first ten minutes and kept charging for every minute after the original ten. It was mostly scripted but the longer he kept the sitter on the phone the more money he made. The point is (according to him) that most astrologers know that what they are doing is bogus but the money is nice so why stop.? He has another (real) job now, so it (astrology)is not going to make him much richer, but we really believe it is the "thrill of the hunt" that makes him continue.
Can he read other astrologers minds to know if they believe in astrology or not?
Apparently, the astrology community talks among themselves and shares ideas and techniques.
I don't believe they need to "...read minds."
Would you like other examples?
It sounds like your friend worked for a Miss Cleo type of place, a 1-900 number type of place. Those places are by definition frauds. The ads even say strictly for entertainment.
You sound like you have a real axe to grind -- who close to you got fleeced by someone like this? As strongly as you feel about this, how can you still call that person a "good friend"?
I had a person in my life I called a good friend. When I found out he dumped a dog -- literally took it to the woods and abandoned it -- I cut him out of my life after telling him why. He did his best to get back into my good graces, but sorry -- someone who does that? Deserves only the worst in life. He is dead to me.
So with my strong feelings and my "line in the sand", I just have a hard time with you being all sanctimonious about astrology, and yet having a good friend who does it. This makes no sense to me at all.
Tallysmom beat me to it, but the website your friend worked for, indeed a fraudulent place.
As a reader of tarot and a student of astrology, I looked into those sites as a way to make some extra $ when I was a single mom. When I found out that my years of study in these areas did not mean squat because the website would rather have me read from a script.
The pricing also rubbed me the wrong way. Know the types of desperate people who need to reassurance that utilize such services, there was not way I would ever feel comfortable doing such a thing.
Another point to make is that your friend, at college age, could not know enough about astrology to even consult on the matter- unless he had a photographic memory and read a couple dozen books on astrology. I have been studying astrology for over 25 years. The knowledge I have is only the tip of the iceberg.
Is astrology a fraud? In order for something to be a fraud it first has to be real. Sure there have been studies, but until we know everything there is to know about the universe and the human psyche, there is no way to say one way or another if astrology is valid or not.
In my personal experience, through study and observation, I have found that there are more hits than strikes. Astrology is not 100% accurate because the subjects are not raised in a 'sterile' environment. Astrology in not a 'this is' thing, it's about potential, what 'can be' and strong inclinations towards certain directions.
Are some who 'use' astrology, without any study, to make money be taking advantage of others fraud, indeed it is.
I would be happy to look at your natal chart and respond with what I see and I won't charge you a dime.
If I am fairly accurate, cool, if not....no harm done, nothing fraudulent .....right?
I don't think Sonic was speaking of 'forum business' discussion. I am pretty sure that the comment was in regards to a skeptic approaching another person - in person.
I think getting drunk is dumb, unhealthy and a waste of money, but I don't go around telling people who are drinking that what they are doing is stupid....I mind my own business.
However, if I see a drunk person getting into the drivers seat with kids in the back seat, someone better be prepared to face momma-bear.
I think that is where Sonic was coming from, but I could be wrong.
Yes. More about the philosophy of living...and how we interact socially in general.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasily
Maybe. But the person who proposes logical explanations for phenomena or calls an idea like astrology bunk is often asked what he/she is doing here and sometimes told to just go away. The implication is that skepticism is not welcome here, and that attacks on ideas are attacks on the people holding them. Anyone who has been on a high school debating team should know better.
Me, I believe astrology is bunk for the same reason I as a clinician have little confidence in Myers-Briggs typology or Enneagrams as useful psychological instruments - because the assumptions underlying them make no sense in terms of the way we understand the world and its workings, and studies have been done on them that demonstrate they don't do what they claim to do.
I posted a link for example a few weeks ago about a carefully designed study that had active participation by professional astrologers, which demonstrated that natal charts don't do what's claimed. Anyone who wants to convince a skeptic like me of the value of natal charts needs to first point out the flaws in that study.
For the record, I've had a number of experiences in my life I'd classify as paranormal (some of which I've written about here) and circa 1972 considered applying at Duke to work with Dr. Rhine. So I have a lifelong interest in scientific research into paranormal phenomena. But taking a scientific approach to something like astrology means questioning and challenging ideas - and being prepared to find out that your hypotheses were wrong.
Oh, no, I am absolutely not...NOT...telling you to go away with your skepticism. You were asking if a skeptic had some obligation to try and argue against things that he/she felt were illogical. I was explaining why I not only think that a skeptic has no such obligation at all, in fact I think it is a nasty thing to do socially sometimes. Certainly protecting the vulnerable from being fleeced is admirable. But arguing wholesale against someone's belief in a thing you don't believe in? That's like an athiest sauntering into a church and explaining how he was about to use logic to "destroy everybody's worldview." Which has its internet equivalent in forums and social media everywhere.
Despite the true fact that we are here to exchange and debate ideas, I don't see the internet as being so different from real life...the people here are real people, and the words you exchange are real words, and just because no one will punch you for them doesn't mean it's OK to be rude or hurtful. And while my "mind your own business" remark probably came off as rude (sorry, it was a "tone doesn't convey" moment...it was a hypothetical implied "you" not "you specifically."--philosophy, not personal attack) I was attempting to express that the practice of trying to argue people into changing their minds with "logic" is usually a bit rude.
Here's why. It's a human sort of science, a psychological thing...when people are invested in a belief, they have usually heard the arguments against it before. They don't choose to believe out of ignorance. In fact I think much of what people believe is simply what we are comfortable accepting and believing, whatever manner we choose to make sense of the world. Even "science" is often contradictory and often wrong, theories that were thought to be proven fact, later proven wrong! We choose what to accept. And any side of any argument can be "proven" with a pile of links to "reputable" sources...all...day...long. Which means that wrong and right wind up being a bit subjective, rather to the discomfort of those who insist on being right and proving everyone wrong. And I think that as a species, the only way we can not be at each others' throats is to live and let live. But just like a religious crusader, the ardent skeptic can be a creature bent on forcible conversion, not content to accept diversity of thought. That bothers me.
And also this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallysmom
Forums, as a general rule, have a set audience. If you were to go onto a forum on a skeptic website, their posters would be more of a skeptical bent, and if you went on a researchers site -- their forum or comments would be more of the "Cites and footnotes" variety.
But here, we are a general forum. We welcome everyone. That being said, being told to cite things isn't helpful here. Our "citations" here are experiences. And experiences are often colored by perception.
For instance. A friend of mine painted her living room recently in a color she says is green. I see it as blue. (it's a tealish silvery gray color). So when we went shopping for accessories, I was pushing blue and she kept saying green. I took over some blue fabric and "proved" the color leaned blue.... and said -- it doesn't go at all, the color is green!
Now -- who's right? Teal is greenish blueish greenish color. And blue is my favorite color. She likes green.
Doesn't it make sense I see the blue, and she sees the green? And doesn't it make sense that I will ALWAYS see the blue, and she will never see it?
Astrology is much the same way. Some people will always believe, no matter what, and some will never believe, no matter what. An inability to convert people to the other side of the argument should not be looked at as a failure. Possibly a deeper insight to human nature.
So no, I'm not being critical of your skepticism, nor asking you to leave. I'm simply arguing back with a more sociological sort of logic on why I don't think it's productive, let alone necessary, to assault belief systems with logic, in general.
It sounds like your friend worked for a Miss Cleo type of place, a 1-900 number type of place. Those places are by definition frauds. The ads even say strictly for entertainment.
You are correct; it was a Miss Cleo type of place. That said, I am not sure why you make a distinction between that type of fraud and the thousands of cottage internet sites that promise;"an expert astrologer..."; "...accurate information...";"...certified results..."; 20, 30 or 40 years of experience. etc.
You sound like you have a real axe to grind -- who close to you got fleeced by someone like this? As strongly as you feel about this, how can you still call that person a "good friend"?
This is pure hyperbole and not really worth a response.
I had a person in my life I called a good friend. When I found out he dumped a dog -- literally took it to the woods and abandoned it -- I cut him out of my life after telling him why. He did his best to get back into my good graces, but sorry -- someone who does that? Deserves only the worst in life. He is dead to me.
We have a dog (Alex is a Chocolate Lab) and I would never do something like this to any animal. We also take in "rescue dogs" (mostly Labs) who have been abandoned or are about to be euthenized . Your relationship with your "ex-friend" is unfortunate but I have trouble understanding the analogy you have offered? "The worst in life...and dead to me." hmmmmmm? Why are you so concerned with our friend's interest in making money from astrology and having him tell us about how it's accomplished? Are you upset with his honesty toward us and not his clients? I said it was a paradox and we challenge him about it often,
So with my strong feelings and my "line in the sand", I just have a hard time with you being all sanctimonious about astrology, and yet having a good friend who does it. This makes no sense to me at all.
"Making sense" is a relative issue; ie your "sense" is different than our "sense" and I am unsure as to what you mean by "(my) line in the sand."
We certainly would not have much of the information to discuss/dispute astrology without our friend's expertise. Hopefully he will 'see the light" soon and abandon his fraudulent ways.
In the meantime I would suggest you research the works of Mark Edward. He was a renowned astrologer, tarot reader, psychic, and Master Psychic of the ill-fated Psychic Friends Radio Network. until he decided (unlike our friend) that he was removing himself from the astrological scene. But like our friend (and Michael Shermer, James Randi and Penn Gillette he has spent the past 25 years explaining why astrology is a fraud.
He was quoted: "This business is built on lies. We're in the golden age of the con. There are people coming out of the woodwork that would love to separate you from your money."
I'm pretty skeptical too actually, especially where money is involved.
But I'm also pretty fascinated with the process of "cold reading." But then I'm always interested in means of understanding people, psychology, what makes us tick. Always stuff worth discussing and exploring...I just prefer to do so without much judgment or condemnation, except when harm is truly being perpetrated.
A consenting adult, sound of mind and body, has a right to make their own financial decisions. If this includes paying for readings, buying lotto tickets, gambling in Vegas, giving to their church, spending on hobbies, collecting rare objects, buying a $5 Starbucks drink daily, or any other thing that isn't strictly necessary...if it brings them enjoyment in life, it's not for me to judge. It's when people who are mentally ill, or elderly and compromised, or grieving...those who are vulnerable...are taken advantage of, then I object.
I read astrological stuff for absolutely free and would never put a penny into it, because like so many things I find it interesting even if I'm not totally sold on absolute accuracy of it. But I used to do a little "palm reading" and "card reading" at a flea market when I was about 19, it was all about cold reading just enough little clues to make someone think I knew stuff...and then giving them advice that would be good for almost anyone. It was nonsense, and fake, sure. But some of those people walked away with a little optimism and a bit of good counsel for a path to better things. If they paid me $5 to brighten their day a bit, so what? I see it as entertainment mostly.
That old question...do we put the responsibility on the person to live life and make their own choices with money and thought, or do we attempt to structure all of society to protect the lowest common denominator? Even if it's all a fraud, I think the check advance and rent-to-own folks need to be called out on the carpet before the psychics and astrologers do...
Apparently, the astrology community talks among themselves and shares ideas and techniques.
I don't believe they need to "...read minds."
Would you like other examples?
Your friend works for a fraudulent company, so what kind of "astrology community" is he in? He is hardly an example of astrology or the personal thoughts of astrologers in general.
His words tell you more about what kind of person he is (dishonest) than it tells you about astrologers or astrology.
Your friend works for a fraudulent company, so what kind of "astrology community" is he in? He is hardly an example of astrology or the personal thoughts of astrologers in general.
His words tell you more about what kind of person he is (dishonest) than it tells you about astrologers or astrology.
I didn't say he "works for a fraudulent company";you did. and BTW he is the company! It is a one man operation.
I fail to see the difference between what he does and all of the other "expert, professional, certified astrologers". At least he admits it is a fraud. And because his clients don't seem to care he continues to take their money. After all, it's only for "entertainment purposes."
He has often told us that "You don't really need to believe in astrology to call your self an astrologer'. Any body can do it and it seems like many people do; over 100,000 astrologers on the internet in the United States alone. All you need to do is be able to convince others of your ability to "cold read." and a website.
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Astrology Fraud
Are you upset with his honesty toward us and not his clients? I said it was a paradox and we challenge him about it often, 
