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Don't assume that just because people in this discussion are from different parts of the world, they are ignorant about NI, or any other geographic place. Some of us have done years of researching different cultures, subjects, etc.
Heck I wouldn't doubt many Brits know a lot about Nazi Germany because they found it fascinating how an advance and civilized society, devolved so quickly into being run by genocidal lunatics.
So while being born NI and growing up there can give someone a unique and better perspective, it can also bias someone to the point of being myopic, and demonizing the other tribe. Evening Sun and I can disagree on certain aspects of this discussion, but I can tell she is knowledgeable. Yet there are a few Brits in the discussion who seem to lack a basic understanding of the "Troubles", GFA, or even English/Irish history, that has the British and Irish carrying historical grievances against each other, to this very day.
You come here and tell us that we don't know our own country and that Americans know what's good for us.
I know the history of the UK and Ireland very well indeed, and to go on about Nazi's and the like is pathetic.
It's been stated numerous times that over two thirds of the people in NI want to remain part of the UK, yet you seem unable to take this on board.
The GFA is very light on substance and talks about normalisation of borders, and according to the WTO borders should be as frictionless as possible.
In terms of the UK, as soon as we have a relationship with the US similar to that of our neighbours the RoI and France the better, as you don't see those countries becoming embroiled in US led war, or US bases operating in those countries. Whilst European countries such as France don't even extradite citizens to the US.
I am all for Americans staying out of our politics, and for Americans to close their bases and go home, as Europe will be better off with US influence and it's constant provoking of Russia and China.
The best post WW2 decision the UK ever made was to stay out of the Vietnam War, and we should have stayed out of Iraq and Afghanistan as well.
So don't lecture us on our own country, and perhaps if you stopped interfering in other countries then things like 9/11 wouldn't happen.
Back in 1947, Britain warned about the partition of Palestine, that more talks were needed with the Arab residence and surrounding nations, but Truman just went ahead and created the state of Israel via a UN vote, which Britain was the only western nation to abstain from, and there has been turmoil and war in the region ever since.
The more recent US led Iraq War led to the destabilisation of the region and the rise of an Islamic Caliphate, which led to violence across the region and to a bloody civil war in Syria.
In reality 9/11 was carried out by Saudi nationals, and was nothing to do with Iraq, however Sadam Hussein was involved in a plot to assassinate George H. Bush and his son George. W. Bush wanted him taken out, and a false pretext related to WMD's was presented to the world.
Whilst Afghanistan just led to the Taliban being in a better position than it was in 2003, and the narrative of a US defeat spread by Islamic fundamentalists, is now a major recruiting tool for those who wish to do harm to the US and West.
US post WW2 foreign policy is a global embarrassment, so don't try to lecture us on the history and culture of our own country or our domestic politics or claim to have some divine right to tell us what to do.
Better still just keep the hell away from us, and take you military bases and interference elsewhere.
Last edited by Brave New World; 02-21-2023 at 03:43 AM..
believe me most Brits of my age know all about The Troubles. many of my friends served in the military during those times.
To be fair I think most in Britain had as much knowledge about the complex history of Ireland as Americans did with the Vietnam conflict. While it was obviously much closer to home i found many never really understood and perhaps didn't care to understand this complicated history largely because it was so alien to them and even quite upsetting. It may have been a few miles across the water but the events that were happening in the North of Ireland and the story behind what caused it was completely alien to them
They were just young kids thrown into a conflict they didn't fully understand and were often at the recieving end of a reaction to British policy which when it was at it's most oppressive only made the lives of the regular British soldier all the harder as it emboldened the armed groups. In the end the only position the British government aswell as Irish government could take was facilitating an agreement between Irish Republicans and British Loyalists and hoped that after decades of fighting a peace agreement could finally be reached. The GFA was something that both the IRA and Loyalists paramilitaries would never have agreed to in the 70's. Today SO much progress has been made that it would be inconceivable to go back to those days. In fact Many UK and Irish cities today are more dangerous than the likes of Belfast and Derry which is evidence of this.
Most people in NI are happy to be in this situation, being free to trade with both the UK and the EU.
Bingo. That is very true however there is one political party in particular that is hostile that the North of Ireland is treated differently to the rest of the UK. Because of this they will not accept the current protocol. Perhaps they will concede however just as they did with the GFA in the past which they were staunchly against. It's the only way forward. Something has to give
To be fair I think most in Britain had as much knowledge about the complex history of Ireland as Americans did with the Vietnam conflict. While it was obviously much closer to home i found many never really understood and perhaps didn't care to understand this complicated history largely because it was so alien to them and even quite upsetting. It may have been a few miles across the water but the events that were happening in the North of Ireland and the story behind what caused it was completely alien to them
They were just young kids thrown into a conflict they didn't fully understand and were often at the recieving end of a reaction to British policy which when it was at it's most oppressive only made the lives of the regular British soldier all the harder as it emboldened the armed groups. In the end the only position the British government aswell as Irish government could take was facilitating an agreement between Irish Republicans and British Loyalists and hoped that after decades of fighting a peace agreement could finally be reached. The GFA was something that both the IRA and Loyalists paramilitaries would never have agreed to in the 70's. Today SO much progress has been made that it would be inconceivable to go back to those days. In fact Many UK and Irish cities today are more dangerous than the likes of Belfast and Derry which is evidence of this.
Gun deaths in the UK make up 4% of homicides or around 30 to 40 in the UK, however in the US they account for 79% of homicides, with more around 19,384 people dying due to gun murders and a further, 24,292 gun suicides in the US.
The number of gun murders in the US represents a 75% increase over the course of the previous decade.
Last year in London, a city of over 9 million, with 3 million daily commuters and around 20 million overseas visitors on average, there were 9 gun deaths linked to violent crime, and 109 murders in London total in 2022. Which is even well above the average in terms of many other parts of Britain.
The police recorded 663 homicide offences in the England and Wales, the last figures in Scotland was 53 and in NI it was 22, making a total of 738, a figure that some US cities regularly exceed.
As for police killing there were 3 in the UK last year, whilst in the US there were 1,176 such killings.
The US has around five times the population of the UK, and if the statistics were the same as the UK would have around 15 police killings a year, and around 150 gun violence deaths.
The last British police officer to be killed in the line of duty was back in 2020.
So you are welcome to your guns and first amendment and your first amendment, as other countries including the UK don't want to be like the US or to follow the US example.
As for NI, I am more than familiar with it's history from the Glorious Revolution and King William of Orange to the Battle of the Boyne, through to the famine, through to the Uprising, Ulster Covenant, RoI and renewed violence in the late 1960's and early 70's, through to the GFA. So don't start patronising the people of Britain or pretending that we are somehow clueless, indeed many British cities have far more Irish ancestry that anywhere outside of Ireland itself, with even cities such as Boston in the US having no where near as much Irish ancestry.
Gun deaths in the UK make up 4% of homicides or around 30 to 40 in the UK, however in the US they account for 79% of homicides, with more around 19,384 people dying due to gun murders and a further, 24,292 gun suicides in the US.
The number of gun murders in the US represents a 75% increase over the course of the previous decade.
Last year in London, a city of over 9 million, with 3 million daily commuters and around 20 million overseas visitors on average, there were 9 gun deaths linked to violent crime, and 109 murders in London total in 2022. Which is even well above the average in terms of many other parts of Britain.
The police recorded 663 homicide offences in the England and Wales, the last figures in Scotland was 53 and in NI it was 22, making a total of 738, a figure that some US cities regularly exceed.
As for police killing there were 3 in the UK last year, whilst in the US there were 1,176 such killings.
The US has around five times the population of the UK, and if the statistics were the same as the UK would have around 15 police killings a year, and around 150 gun violence deaths.
The last British police officer to be killed in the line of duty was back in 2020.
So you are welcome to your guns and first amendment and your first amendment, as other countries including the UK don't want to be like the US or to follow the US example.
As for NI, I am more than familiar with it's history from the Glorious Revolution and King William of Orange to the Battle of the Boyne, through to the famine, through to the Uprising, Ulster Covenant, RoI and renewed violence in the late 1960's and early 70's, through to the GFA. So don't start patronising the people of Britain or pretending that we are somehow clueless, indeed many British cities have far more Irish ancestry that anywhere outside of Ireland itself, with even cities such as Boston in the US having no where near as much Irish ancestry.
First off i don't care what you claim you know. I claimed MOST... MOST. Read what I have written and stop with these ultra nationalistic rants.
Also why do you insist on bringing up the US in comments that have nothing to do with it. Their issues are their issues. This is about Brexit and the effect it has had on Ireland (North and South)
Brexit was and is a UK decision, not just NI or ROI, ALL of UK, it was a MAJORITY decision, get it?
And that my friend is why the most divisive referendum in recent British history will accelerate the UK's end. Prior to Brexit the North of Ireland enjoyed easy and seamless access to the South of Ireland and Britain. Today there is a border down the Irish sea. That's what you voted for because that's what you got. Get it? I have one question. By voting for Brexit what did you personally think would happen in the North of Ireland or did you not really care? Did you honestly think a clean break was possible? I understand Many and perhaps most in Britain don't really care about the North of Ireland anyway which is fair enough due to the troubled history but what did they think would happen with Brexit? Also what about Scotland? I enjoy having discussions about Brexit and what other people from across the entire UK feel about it to get their perspective
If anything Brexit merely highlighted truly how different and even divided the UK truly is. Believe it or not I actually understand why many wanted Brexit but I feel it was going to be the issue that makes or breaks the UK going forward. I suppose nothing lasts forever. Once upon a time the EU didn't exist and perhaps it may not in the future similar to the UK. Nations change, cultures change. Nothing stays the same forever
And that my friend is why the most divisive referendum in recent British history will accelerate the UK's end. Prior to Brexit the North of Ireland enjoyed easy and seamless access to the South of Ireland and Britain. Today there is a border down the Irish sea. That's what you voted for because that's what you got. Get it? I have one question. By voting for Brexit what did you personally think would happen in the North of Ireland or did you not really care? Did you honestly think a clean break was possible? I understand Many and perhaps most in Britain don't really care about the North of Ireland anyway which is fair enough due to the troubled history but what did they think would happen with Brexit? Also what about Scotland? I enjoy having discussions about Brexit and what other people from across the entire UK feel about it to get their perspective
If anything Brexit merely highlighted truly how different and even divided the UK truly is. Believe it or not I actually understand why many wanted Brexit but I feel it was going to be the issue that makes or breaks the UK going forward. I suppose nothing lasts forever. Once upon a time the EU didn't exist and perhaps it may not in the future similar to the UK. Nations change, cultures change. Nothing stays the same forever
Spot on. Cameron was warned about this right from the start. Eton churns out some really ignorant and arrogant idiots.
And that my friend is why the most divisive referendum in recent British history will accelerate the UK's end. Prior to Brexit the North of Ireland enjoyed easy and seamless access to the South of Ireland and Britain. Today there is a border down the Irish sea. That's what you voted for because that's what you got. Get it? I have one question. By voting for Brexit what did you personally think would happen in the North of Ireland or did you not really care? Did you honestly think a clean break was possible? I understand Many and perhaps most in Britain don't really care about the North of Ireland anyway which is fair enough due to the troubled history but what did they think would happen with Brexit? Also what about Scotland? I enjoy having discussions about Brexit and what other people from across the entire UK feel about it to get their perspective
If anything Brexit merely highlighted truly how different and even divided the UK truly is. Believe it or not I actually understand why many wanted Brexit but I feel it was going to be the issue that makes or breaks the UK going forward. I suppose nothing lasts forever. Once upon a time the EU didn't exist and perhaps it may not in the future similar to the UK. Nations change, cultures change. Nothing stays the same forever
I and many like me voted for a clean break from the EU, no deals, no withdrawal agreements, just OUT.
we have had enough of the EU and wanted nothing more to do with it, make our own laws without hinderance from the EU and European judges meddling in purely British decisions.
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