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View Poll Results: Will the UK disintegrate?
Yes 158 33.47%
No 314 66.53%
Voters: 472. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-26-2019, 02:43 AM
 
6,064 posts, read 6,019,647 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by English Dave View Post
Corbyn has peaked, and is on the slide. His moment has passed. I judge a man by his friends. His close ones are Marxists.

Without him, Labour would be soaring in the polls. It can't be long before the night of the long knives.

Boris is doing ok, better than I thought he would. Tusk and Juncker can't walk all over him, like they did the hapless Theresa May.

We're in the dog days of our EU membership. Better get used to it.

What's your beef with Marxists yet happily lay with nationalist elites ? Tell me do you find something wrong with Marx's suggestion that government is never neutral, but is always a tool of the dominant social class which operates through it to advance its interests. Well do you?
Boris has done nothing and he is playing out to his home audience. Wait and see. I know we live in the time of celebrity worship regardless of content where appearance wins the day, but look a little deeper and turn the rock over. You might be surprised what is lurking underneath.
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Old 08-26-2019, 02:47 AM
 
6,064 posts, read 6,019,647 times
Reputation: 3639
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roscoe Conkling View Post
Tearing the country apart ? There you go again with the fake news.
Boris is currently romping ahead of the field in the latest opinion poll because he's committed to delivering what the country voted for.
The only people tearing themselves apart are the motley crew of Remainers who can't agree among themselves.
And it's a joy to watch.
Post-Brexit their pain will be comedy gold.
Only fake news is those with head firmly buried in the ground. But fine by me if you enjoy the sad state of affairs that is UK at the moment.
Outers running scared of course, as another vote would likely see them lose and Britain retaining its rightful place in Europe.
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Old 08-26-2019, 02:53 AM
 
6,064 posts, read 6,019,647 times
Reputation: 3639
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glokta View Post
If you look at it from Borris point of view it makes sense. He's weak as anything at the moment and needs to make it to a GE in the best possible shape.

If he actually negotiates he might get some small concessions out of the EU but the HoC will bounce it and he'll appear weak start to lose support.

By being unreasonable he either gets a major concession out of the EU (unlikey) or he gets something he can pass.

Best case the HoC block a No deal and he can call a GE immediately.
Its what happens behind the scenes of course that matters, which the public are not privy to. Appears a day by day thing with government clueless as to how it will end but continuing to play blinds man's bluff and act tough to keep the tabloids and disgruntled on side. Shame unable to do so within own party or country in general.
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Old 08-26-2019, 03:24 AM
 
Location: Itinerant
8,278 posts, read 6,295,624 times
Reputation: 6681
Quote:
Originally Posted by the troubadour View Post
Tell me do you find something wrong with Marx's suggestion that government is never neutral, but is always a tool of the dominant social class which operates through it to advance its interests. Well do you?
I actually don't, disagree with Marx observation. Where we digress is not in the observation, but the solution. Marx solution was to increase state powers, just given to a different ruling class. My solution is to decrease state powers, because the individual has the tools necessary to advance their own interests either alone or with like minded communities.

However more of the same will never resolve an issue caused by that 'same'.
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Old 08-26-2019, 03:46 AM
 
1,877 posts, read 681,728 times
Reputation: 1072
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roscoe Conkling View Post
How did you know the people being abused were Polish ?
I don't, but they were clearly perceived as such by the people dishing out the abuse. Xenophobic Neanderthals are not known for their intelligence and commitment to accuracy though so it's possible they might have been Lithuanian, Slovakian etc.

You are living in a bubble removed from the real world if you don't see that there has been an effect on legitimising xenophobic attitudes following from the referendum result.

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...7-hosb1717.pdf

Of course not all leavers are xenophobes but pretty much all xenophobes are leavers, and it's always worth looking at who you are sharing a platform with and who feels emboldened and legitimised by the stance you are taking.
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Old 08-26-2019, 04:59 AM
 
Location: Itinerant
8,278 posts, read 6,295,624 times
Reputation: 6681
Quote:
Originally Posted by MnM258 View Post
I don't, but they were clearly perceived as such by the people dishing out the abuse. Xenophobic Neanderthals are not known for their intelligence and commitment to accuracy though so it's possible they might have been Lithuanian, Slovakian etc.

You are living in a bubble removed from the real world if you don't see that there has been an effect on legitimising xenophobic attitudes following from the referendum result.

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...7-hosb1717.pdf

Of course not all leavers are xenophobes but pretty much all xenophobes are leavers, and it's always worth looking at who you are sharing a platform with and who feels emboldened and legitimised by the stance you are taking.
I'm not sure the referendum result is the issue.

Reference figure A2.

You can see that up to the referendum the instances begin to increase. However post referendum they follow a downward trend. Right up until the Westminster Bridge attack, where the trend returns to a positive gradient. This continues until the London Bridge and Finsbury Park attacks and is again on a downward trend.

That to me says that its more likely in response to terror attacks than the referendum.

Further...
See figure 2.1.

The violence against the person and public order offenses and hate crimes are normalized at 100 for the year 2012/2013, we see an increase in both over the period to 2016/2017. However relatively there are fewer hate crimes being committed since the hate crime line parallels the violence and public order line, but is lower than the rate was in 2012/13 given the ratio of normalized hate crimes and public order/violence was fixed at 100 in 2012/13. Thus as a ratio fewer violent and public order offenses today involve hate crimes (since hate crimes are also violent or public order offenses). Clearly as violence increases and this refers to recorded crime (not convictions) it's very easy to double down any violent or public order offense where there is a risk of prejudice being a component, however the trend shows that these instances are lower today than on 2012/13.

So...
I'm not convinced there's a huge issue, control the violence and the hate crimes will be managed given as a ratio fewer violent and public order crimes are hate crimes today than 2012/13.
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Old 08-26-2019, 05:46 AM
 
Location: England
26,272 posts, read 8,456,777 times
Reputation: 31336
Quote:
Originally Posted by the troubadour View Post
What's your beef with Marxists yet happily lay with nationalist elites ? Tell me do you find something wrong with Marx's suggestion that government is never neutral, but is always a tool of the dominant social class which operates through it to advance its interests. Well do you?
Boris has done nothing and he is playing out to his home audience. Wait and see. I know we live in the time of celebrity worship regardless of content where appearance wins the day, but look a little deeper and turn the rock over. You might be surprised what is lurking underneath.
Ah, you're an idealist. You'll learn in time. Corbyn needs putting out to grass now, and take his team with him, especially the stupid Diane Abbott. You think that woman is capable of running the Home Office?

Corbyn does. That woman must have something on him.........
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Old 08-26-2019, 08:49 AM
 
1,285 posts, read 596,745 times
Reputation: 762
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave New World View Post
Tusk and the EU are now stating to change their tune, and have moved from a positon of we won't negotiate to a one of we will listen to alternatives to the backstop and according to some insiders the EU are now in panic mode.

Tusk is so stupid that he's tried to suggest Johnson will be Mr No-Deal if a no-deal happens, when in reality it's the British Parliament as a whole that won't entertain the idea of the backstop and has defeated it three times by record votes against the legislation.

When will the EU understand than the backstop is a no deal full stop.
It's only possible to believe this if you haven't been paying attention or haven't actually read anything about the WA and Backstop provision.
https://ec.europa.eu/ireland/news/ke...reas/brexit_en


Alternatives to the Backstop have always been possible, it's just Britain has not proposed anything deliverable. So the Backstop remains the last resort.

You'll need to sign and implement the WA to avail of any Transition period.
You can always punt on proposing Alternative Arrangements for the border and sort it out during the Transition period. If that fails however, the BackStop is the only game in town.

Protocol on Ireland and Northern Ireland (this is the meat of the Back Stop)
https://europa.eu/rapid/press-releas...18-6423_en.htm
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Old 08-26-2019, 08:59 AM
 
5,606 posts, read 3,527,633 times
Reputation: 7414
Quote:
Originally Posted by MnM258 View Post
I don't, but they were clearly perceived as such by the people dishing out the abuse. Xenophobic Neanderthals are not known for their intelligence and commitment to accuracy though so it's possible they might have been Lithuanian, Slovakian etc.

You are living in a bubble removed from the real world if you don't see that there has been an effect on legitimising xenophobic attitudes following from the referendum result.

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...7-hosb1717.pdf

Of course not all leavers are xenophobes but pretty much all xenophobes are leavers, and it's always worth looking at who you are sharing a platform with and who feels emboldened and legitimised by the stance you are taking.
Thanks for confirming your story was bull.
I guessed it all along.
Like so much of the increasingly desperate Remain campaign of scares, lies and disinformation it just doesn't ring true.
British people of whatever political persuasion are not inherently racist or xenophobic.
This idea that people are being hounded the length and breadth of the country because they are immigrants is ludicrous.
Fortunately we only have a few more weeks to listen to this claptrap.
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Old 08-26-2019, 09:03 AM
 
Location: Great Britain
27,456 posts, read 13,680,810 times
Reputation: 19804
Quote:
Originally Posted by jman0war View Post
It's only possible to believe this if you haven't been paying attention or haven't actually read anything about the WA and Backstop provision.
https://ec.europa.eu/ireland/news/ke...reas/brexit_en


Alternatives to the Backstop have always been possible, it's just Britain has not proposed anything deliverable. So the Backstop remains the last resort.

You'll need to sign and implement the WA to avail of any Transition period.
You can always punt on proposing Alternative Arrangements for the border and sort it out during the Transition period. If that fails however, the BackStop is the only game in town.

Protocol on Ireland and Northern Ireland (this is the meat of the Back Stop)
https://europa.eu/rapid/press-releas...18-6423_en.htm
It's pointless even taking about he backtop has been subject to one of the heavist defeats in Parliamentary history, and it has been defeated three times in all.

Britain is suggesting trusted trade schemes, electronic pre-clearing and as well as looking at a recent report detailing other options, with the possibility of the recommendations in the report leading to an 'Alternative Arrangements Protocol 'which could be inserted into the divorce treaty to ensure that the UK and EU would never activate the backstop.

There is no possibility whatsoever of the backstop EVER geting through the UK Parliament otherwise.

If the EU won't drop the backstop or adopt an 'Alternative Arrangements Protocol ' then a no-deal Brexit is the default option Brexit option and it will deeply effect the UK's relationship with Europe, indeed it was the EU which stated it wanted a good relationship with the UK post-Brexit in the first place.

As for a new trade deal, I personally would suggest the UK suspends membership of a number of Treaties such as the Lancaster House Treaties, the Joint Expeditionary Force (JEF) and NATO including Article 5 until a trade deal that Britain is totally happy with has been signed.

There's no other way forward, as you can't expect Britain to keep the same relations with Europe in such corcumstances and it's pointless discussing the backstop, as that simply is not going to ever happen.

Last edited by Brave New World; 08-26-2019 at 09:35 AM..
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