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He is right Roscoe in the fact that the Tories did oppose the foundation of the NHS. Winston Churchill tried to stop it ever coming in to being.
They also opposed the introduction of the minimum wage. But, they now seem to accept it, and increase it.
I know where geoff is coming from, and understand how he feels.
I don't like voting Tory, but I know I just have to at this time. Maybe one day, Labour will once again become a political party I can vote for. But not right now, and that's for sure.
Dave - the NHS is a bottomless pit where no matter how much money is shovelled into it more will be demanded.
The sooner people realise that if you want a top tier national health service those who can afford it will have to pay for it the better it will be.
Everyone knows it but politically everyone is afraid to say it.
I would start with missed hospital and GP appointments - a few fines will soon sort that problem out.
The winter bed crisis ? That's caused because at Christmas and New Year most surgeons are off skiing and overweight nurses are at home shoving even more chocolate into them.
Non-essential 999 calls and use of ambulances as taxis ? Bill them.
In economic matters the Torfies transformed employment and trade union legislation in Britain - Labour wants to bring back secondary picketing and would return this country to the days of Arthur Effing Scargill.
Dave - the NHS is a bottomless pit where no matter how much money is shovelled into it more will be demanded.
The sooner people realise that if you want a top tier national health service those who can afford it will have to pay for it the better it will be.
Everyone knows it but politically everyone is afraid to say it.
I would start with missed hospital and GP appointments - a few fines will soon sort that problem out.
The winter bed crisis ? That's caused because at Christmas and New Year most surgeons are off skiing and overweight nurses are at home shoving even more chocolate into them.
Non-essential 999 calls and use of ambulances as taxis ? Bill them.
In economic matters the Tories transformed employment and trade union legislation in Britain - Labour wants to bring back secondary picketing and would return this country to the days of Arthur Effing Scargill.
Like I understand how geoff feels about things, I also sympathise with your viewpoint Roscoe. I realise many people in this country don't recognise just how lucky we are to have the NHS, and abuse it. I recognise you are right that the NHS is a bottomless pit as far as money goes.
I have seen the NHS close up this last 16 months. I have been through a health crisis that I thought would kill me in the end. While receiving treatment, I have seen some people abuse the NHS, and the doctors and nurses trying to help them. Such people I would just throw out the hospital doors, and say don't come back.
I have also seen the best of humanity, trying their best to help ordinary people like me survive. The NHS is a precious thing, and must be funded as best as we can afford. But, we have to understand the true cost of doing so. There is no such thing as a free lunch.
That's the trouble with the current Labour leadership. They are offering free lunches all over the place. Free university tuition, free dental check ups, free broadband for all. Then we have nationalisation of Royal Mail, water companies, and train services. All done by shaking the money tree, and raising taxes on the rich. We have heard all this decades ago from Denis Healey. He said he'd 'squeeze the rich, until the pips squeaked.' It wasn't long after that, he had to run to the IMF for a massive loan to save the economy from collapse.
The young know nothing of this, and are ignorant of Labour, and it's record in government for decades past. Corbyn is dangerous, and will cause great damage to the economy of this country. He needs finishing off in this upcoming election, and throwing into the dustbin of history. I don't like saying it, but it's the truth.
Change is needed. There is massive unfairness. This is nothing new. But, you attack the rich, and all they will do is ensure their wealth is safe. It's easier now for them to do so than ever. Companies are already moving their assets offshore, in case of a Labour win. My number one concern is ensuring we leave the EU. The Conservatives are the only party who are going to do that.
Last edited by English Dave; 11-24-2019 at 11:22 AM..
Like I understand how geoff feels about things, I also sympathise with your viewpoint Roscoe. I realise many people in this country don't recognise just how lucky we are to have the NHS, and abuse it. I recognise you are right that the NHS is a bottomless pit as far as money goes.
I have seen the NHS close up this last 16 months. I have been through a health crisis that I thought would kill me in the end. While receiving treatment, I have seen some people abuse the NHS, and the doctors and nurses trying to help them. Such people I would just throw out the hospital doors, and say don't come back.
I have also seen the best of humanity, trying their best to help ordinary people like me survive. The NHS is a precious thing, and must be funded as best as we can afford. But, we have to understand the true cost of doing so. There is no such thing as a free lunch.
That's the trouble with the current Labour leadership. They are offering free lunches all over the place. Free university tuition, free dental check ups, free broadband for all. Then we have nationalisation of Royal Mail, water companies, and train services. All done by shaking the money tree, and raising taxes on the rich. We have heard all this decades ago from Denis Healey. He said he'd 'squeeze the rich, until the pips squeaked.' It wasn't long after that, he had to run to the IMF for a massive loan to save the economy from collapse.
The young know nothing of this, and are ignorant of Labour, and it's record in government for decades past. Corbyn is dangerous, and will cause great damage to the economy of this country. He needs finishing off in this upcoming election, and throwing into the dustbin of history. I don't like saying it, but it's the truth.
Change is needed. There is massive unfairness. This is nothing new. But, you attack the rich, and all they will do is ensure their wealth is safe. It's easier now for them to do so than ever. Companies are already moving their assets offshore, in case of a Labour win. My number one concern is ensuring we leave the EU. The Conservatives are the only party who are going to do that.
Dave.At heart there is no difference between Corbyn and Johnson. Neither is a monster and both would try their utmost not to let any person suffer adversely whilst receiving treatment under the NHS.
The question is how best to achieve that.
Johnson believes in a market economy - the richer people get the more tax they can pay for things like the NHS.
Corbyn believes in the State micro-managing every person to make sure no-one earns more than anyone else.
It's the politics of envy.It's the politics of Venezuela.It's the politics of Marxism.
As Maggie once said, socialism is great until your run out of other people's money to spend.
Dave.At heart there is no difference between Corbyn and Johnson. Neither is a monster and both would try their utmost not to let any person suffer adversely whilst receiving treatment under the NHS.
The question is how best to achieve that.
Johnson believes in a market economy - the richer people get the more tax they can pay for things like the NHS.
Corbyn believes in the State micro-managing every person to make sure no-one earns more than anyone else.
It's the politics of envy.It's the politics of Venezuela.It's the politics of Marxism.
As Maggie once said, socialism is great until your run out of other people's money to spend.
You'll never vote Labour again in your life.
Great summation. Can we bring you to our side of 'the pond' to vote?
I can vividly recll the nightmare of the Labour's Socialism up to when the Tories took over and it was a disatrous period along with high inflation and a dangerous attitude practiced by Labour. Corbyn would be a dissater and that he sits o the fence over the Brexit thig a disgrace thinking it makes him look balanced! Quoting the Conservative stance away back in the 1940's is practical history but so too is the Labour waffle. Even Brwon at the 2010 general election was hypocritical. Can some remember he was taped saying a nasty thing about a Labour supporter when getting into his car?? Labour did not increase when people started paying taxes and the Tories did each year for a series of years and gave a lot of the less well off a better financial thing. Corbyn is a nightmare and a man of leanings to terrorists in his history and wanting to go back to it's 1970's idea of Socialism would be a nightmare for everyone. What that two-face does is ignore the truth of how much the very rich pay in percentage of government income. He and his Marxist leaners are a practical danger and even in routine ways they ignore how many of their traditional voters feel in places like the north of England and yes here in Scotland too where they have been reduced.
Dave.At heart there is no difference between Corbyn and Johnson. Neither is a monster and both would try their utmost not to let any person suffer adversely whilst receiving treatment under the NHS.
The question is how best to achieve that.
Johnson believes in a market economy - the richer people get the more tax they can pay for things like the NHS.
Corbyn believes in the State micro-managing every person to make sure no-one earns more than anyone else.
It's the politics of envy.It's the politics of Venezuela.It's the politics of Marxism.
As Maggie once said, socialism is great until your run out of other people's money to spend.
You'll never vote Labour again in your life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa
Great summation. Can we bring you to our side of 'the pond' to vote?
There are so many parallels. Makes you wonder why these things are happening all at once all over the world. (Here in the US Labour would be the Medicare for All people--the top 2% rich people would pay for all the rest of us. ) Obama's ACA tried to be fair with poorer people paying less--it needs fixing but our current government wants to make it die.
As regards Brexit, yes, parallels again. Not so much about the colonies breaking away from England; that was about taxation. But in the 1860s, our North against South Civil War over slavery. The North made the South remain in the Union but we are still unofficially fighting that war, divided as ever. Probably would have been better to just let them leave and each go their own way. That's how it should be with Brexit, I think. GET OUT!! Boris may be a bumbling clown at times but it sounds like he can do it. He should have had it in the bag. Hoping things will work out for the best in the long run.
Bloomberg.
Whose founder described Brexit as the stupidest thing any country has ever done apart from electing Trump.
And you expect us to take anything they say seriously ?
Next you'll be telling us the FT is a bastion of impartial journalism.
Thanks for the lolz.
Name calling, and attacking outlets you don't agree with, is just lazy whataboutery, that you use to avoid addressing the substantive issues. You may be fooling yourself, but not me, squire.
As regards Brexit, yes, parallels again. Not so much about the colonies breaking away from England; that was about taxation. But in the 1860s, our North against South Civil War over slavery. The North made the South remain in the Union but we are still unofficially fighting that war, divided as ever. Probably would have been better to just let them leave and each go their own way. That's how it should be with Brexit, I think. GET OUT!! Boris may be a bumbling clown at times but it sounds like he can do it. He should have had it in the bag. Hoping things will work out for the best in the long run.
It is not a coincidence that the U.S. and the U.K. are similar. Though one is a monarchy in form, the other a republic, they both have similarities. Among those are single-member districts rather than proportional representation. The EU is a rep-by-prop system as are most of their member states.
The difference between Brexit and southern secession is that when politicians coaxed the U.K. into the EU the people were assured they could exit any time they want. Because the people of the U.K., in their heart of hearts, did not want union. On the other hand, states such as Virginia and South Carolina were enthusiastic about the formation of the U.S. and only slightly less so about the ratification of the Constitution. The Constitution has an admission mechanism but none for secession. It was only when they came up "snake eyes" in the roll of the democratic dice that they wanted out. Of course a union cannot function when it's "heads I win tails you lose."
A strong argument against letting the South go its own way is that eventually both the Confederate and United States of America would have fractured as winners and losers sorted out.
Name calling, and attacking outlets you don't agree with, is just lazy whataboutery, that you use to avoid addressing the substantive issues. You may be fooling yourself, but not me, squire.
"Whataboutery" or "whataboutism" is pointing out contrary examples. There's nothing inherently wrong with it, except obviously "two wrongs don't make a right."
"Whataboutery" or "whataboutism" is pointing out contrary examples. There's nothing inherently wrong with it, except obviously "two wrongs don't make a right."
You're taking a very narrow definition. I take a broader one. People can decide which they prefer. In my definition, whataboutery includes, but is not confined simply to contrary examples. I include debate avoidance/thread derailing tactics.
Of course there's something inherently*wrong with it, - if people use it only for the purpose of avoiding discussion on a substantive issue. Roscoe employs that*tactic*repeatedly.*
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) Obama's ACA tried to be fair with poorer people paying less--it needs fixing but our current government wants to make it die. 
