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I'm reading here with interest, trying to understand your politics and also trying to compare BREXIT with what has happened here in the USA election.
Sounds like one thing we had in common was no decent choice. All or nothing.
I'm somewhat progressive for an American: I want a national health care system, not millions of Americans without health insurance left to die. I'm not hung up on whether a woman can legally get an abortion. I have nothing against gays. I do not think the earth is flat or that it is only 5000 years old and I think climate change is probably true. I'm against big oil, big pharm, any big money grabbing monopoly. We need some regulations against monopolies...and we need regulations in general, but not regs. that seek to micro manage. That's the Democratic party.
Yet I am fed up with many millions of illegals (mainly Mexican and Central American) just walking into the country--and no matter what anyone says, they DO take jobs away. They have overloaded our schools with their kids and everywhere you go, things are written in Spanish now. You make a phone call and you get, "Press 1 for English, press 2 for Spanish."
That's usually the Republican party (it's little known that many of us Democrats are sick and tired of the catering to illegals too.) I want jobs to come back. I'm sick and tired of things needing to be politically correct.
But what was our choice? I voted for Hillary--held my nose. At least we could have kept health care. How would you like your NHS ripped away with nothing to replace it? Health care only for the rich or for those who can pay for it through their jobs? What about the unemployed or the disabled or others who fall between the cracks?
I don't think Trump knows what he wants. He's not a politician, he's a tycoon. He used to be a Democrat. He makes deals and I think if he gets his way there will be trade deals with the UK. It can't even begin to be negotiated until 2019 though.
But is he even going to rule? Many of his close advisers don't like or agree with him. He says he loves Russia and Putin, yet one of his top men, Paul Ryan is strongly opposed to close ties with Russia. Just one example. His appointees are a mess made up of multi millionaires to whom he probably owes favors.
"They" tell the people that BREXIT and Trump are for "the people." In part, that may be true. But I think "the people" were actually caught somewhere in the middle with no good choice. It was either one extreme or the other. I don't know enough about UK politics to speculate much but here in the USA, "the people" are going to be screwed.
The great thing about Brexit is that although, yes, uncontrolled migration was perhaps the largest driving point the second driving point and the silver lining for remainers is that at least we now have control of our own policies or at least we can hold the decision makers to account as they will now be in this country and not in the far flung unelected offices of the European commission in Brussels.
Trump is a whole separate kettle of fish of progressive vs regressive policies and dangerous racial segregation and violence to a level not seen in the UK.
You say maybe in ten years from now we will have enough imported unskilled labour. What do you base this on? You believe unlimited unskilled workers are necessary for the foreseeable future?
Where do you think all these people are going to live?
No, what I said was that if the need arises we can have control of immigration into this country for whatever the country needs. That's my point. My parents entered as unskilled workers in the 70's because they were invited and this country needed it, I don't appreciate the current demonisation of people like my parents in my own country when they were invited by this country and have contributed to building this country.
I'm reading here with interest, trying to understand your politics and also trying to compare BREXIT with what has happened here in the USA election.
Sounds like one thing we had in common was no decent choice. All or nothing.
I'm somewhat progressive for an American: I want a national health care system, not millions of Americans without health insurance left to die. I'm not hung up on whether a woman can legally get an abortion. I have nothing against gays. I do not think the earth is flat or that it is only 5000 years old and I think climate change is probably true. I'm against big oil, big pharm, any big money grabbing monopoly. We need some regulations against monopolies...and we need regulations in general, but not regs. that seek to micro manage. That's the Democratic party.
Yet I am fed up with many millions of illegals (mainly Mexican and Central American) just walking into the country--and no matter what anyone says, they DO take jobs away. They have overloaded our schools with their kids and everywhere you go, things are written in Spanish now. You make a phone call and you get, "Press 1 for English, press 2 for Spanish."
That's usually the Republican party (it's little known that many of us Democrats are sick and tired of the catering to illegals too.) I want jobs to come back. I'm sick and tired of things needing to be politically correct.
But what was our choice? I voted for Hillary--held my nose. At least we could have kept health care. How would you like your NHS ripped away with nothing to replace it? Health care only for the rich or for those who can pay for it through their jobs? What about the unemployed or the disabled or others who fall between the cracks?
I don't think Trump knows what he wants. He's not a politician, he's a tycoon. He used to be a Democrat. He makes deals and I think if he gets his way there will be trade deals with the UK. It can't even begin to be negotiated until 2019 though.
But is he even going to rule? Many of his close advisers don't like or agree with him. He says he loves Russia and Putin, yet one of his top men, Paul Ryan is strongly opposed to close ties with Russia. Just one example. His appointees are a mess made up of multi millionaires to whom he probably owes favors.
"They" tell the people that BREXIT and Trump are for "the people." In part, that may be true. But I think "the people" were actually caught somewhere in the middle with no good choice. It was either one extreme or the other. I don't know enough about UK politics to speculate much but here in the USA, "the people" are going to be screwed.
We're both in a mess, you in America, and us here in the UK. Whoever we vote for, the situation slowly gets worse. We had an overconfident Prime Minister, who thought he had the Brexit vote in the bag - he was wrong, and it shocked the whole world. Especially the financial world. They are now regrouping, and making more money than ever.
Clinton thought she had the vote in the bag in your election. She was wrong as well. You now have a billionaire filling the swamp, instead of draining it. We're all screwed.
No, what I said was that if the need arises we can have control of immigration into this country for whatever the country needs. That's my point. My parents entered as unskilled workers in the 70's because they were invited and this country needed it, I don't appreciate the current demonisation of people like my parents in my own country when they were invited by this country and have contributed to building this country.
There is no demonisation of people from me. At least towards the decent majority who have come to live here. I understand very well why unskilled people come to this country. But, we are being overcome by too much, in too short a time. It has to stop, or at least be slowed massively.
We have received some of the best of Europe, and the worse. We need to be able to decide exactly who comes to live in this country. That's why the majority voted to leave the EU.
Those who say it was a small majority, include the Scottish vote, whose little yappy dog leader never shuts her mouth. Take away the Scottish vote, and the English vote was much wider to leave. Theresa May seems to accept this, and is moving to the exit door. She just needs a kick up the arse to get there quicker.
Last edited by English Dave; 01-17-2017 at 10:59 AM..
There is no demonisation of people from me. At least towards the decent majority who have come to live here. I understand very well why unskilled people come to this country. But, we are being overcome by too much, in too short a time. It has to stop, or at least be slowed massively.
We have received some of the best of Europe, and the worse. We need to be able to decide exactly who comes to live in this country. That's why the majority voted to leave the EU.
Those who say it was a small minority, include the Scottish vote, whose little yappy dog leader never shuts her mouth. Take away the Scottish vote, and the English vote was much wider to leave. Theresa May seems to accept this, and is moving to the exit door. She just needs a kick up the arse to get there quicker.
Read again what I said and see that I don't disagree with you at all. I don't get why you're coming at me.
The only thing I said is that if the need so arises we have the decision to bring in unskilled labour from abroad. That may not happen or the country may grow so much that we need to revisit that policy. The point is that our policy makers now have the control not those shambolic unelected representatives in Brussels.
I also want to shut up the lazy chavs once and for all. Anyone can get a good job if you work and study for it. Immigrant scapegoating doesn't cloud the fact that the attitude towards education of young people is mediocre compared to countries like South Korea or Denmark.
Actually it isn't that complex as far as the US election is concerned. In general all but hardcover neo-libs didn't vote for Clinton. Liberals were torn given the revelations about Clinton/Sanders and the DNC role in kneecapping Sanders while assisting Clinton. Conservatives weren't going to vote Clinton. The rest had to make a choice of the same policies as have existed since the turn of the Millennium (more or less) or roll the dice on someone out in left field.
The issue that everyone seems to miss is that in truth Trump didn't really win, so much as Clinton lost. I think this is actually borne out in the media missing the mark as badly as it did, and the Democrats and their toadies spending a quarter trying to point the finger at the Russians, fake news, ignorance, etc. rather than self examination of the loss.
The exact same sentiment is what created the Brexit referendum result. Staying with the EU retained the status quo, Brexit alters the status quo for better or worse, but if the status quo isn't working for you, would an unknown "for worse" be worse than the known "for worse" of staying. I'll also add that even now there's the same complaints from remainers as are coming from the Democrats and their toadies.
Now in both Brexit and US presidential elections people need to not look at what the other side did right, but on what they did wrong. Clinton could have run her campaign with policies that could have swayed the middle ground more towards her (or more realistically a better, less tarnished candidate). Remain campaigners should have used positives of being in Europe and policies for adjusting some of the issues that many Brexiters had concerns with.
What needs to happen is to address the concerns of the people who voted against the status quo, and not level recriminations at them because they risked their best interests to change the establishment. It takes a lot of bravery, or desperation to take that risk.
I regard Trump as a good lesson in assymetrical warfare, Trump won because Clinton was terrible but also because he threw out the political playbook. I bet on Trump winning and made a good amount on his win. The reason why I felt so strongly that he would win was because of his impressive display during the republican primaries. He made caricatures of the competition, 'weak jeb bush', 'lying ted' and 'little Mark Rubio'. He tested different approaches and stuck with those that worked. He even did it to Clinton with 'Crooked Hillary' and the whole 'Drain the Swamp' slogan.
It was clever and left his opponents reeling. One cannot discount his appeal through the tactics he used. But here is the issue, Trump also played into the racial politics never far away from the American Psyche. I am not so sure he cares about race that much, but it certainly garnered him support. The problem is that through so doing he has reopened wounds I am not sure will heal any time soon.
Also Trump wasnt alone, the likes of Jared Kushner and Steve Bannon helped direct him. There is a reason why alt-right strongly viewed him as one of their own. I agree the Republican elite were shocked by his victory, but as with Brexit a few were smart enough to read the conditions and realise that with small resources one could upturn the whole status quo. Nigel Farage rightly saw middle American discontent as being similar to northern discontent with Westminster and helped Trump play into it. The whole ignore the polls mantra was again a strong play to guerilla politics and it worked..
The bigger picture I have only started to appreciate is who Trump and Farage work for. I think they are just figure heads for bigger players who used them to serve their own agenda. Farage has disappeared and now Theresa is racing towards a deeply laissez faire model. While America may be heading towards an era of corporate domination that will make the robber barons of old seem like saints. Trump is betting everything on trickle down, targetted protectionism and a FDR infrastructure splurge to help the working class. Between the elites and working man, I know the former will benefit more..
In truth the fact that people felt desperate enough to vote for these outliers suggests something deeper and more worrying, the western system is in acute difficulties and no one currently has a decent solution.
The bigger picture I have only started to appreciate is who Trump and Farage work for. I think they are just figure heads for bigger players who used them to serve their own agenda.
This is also what intrigues me. Who are the major players that manage to topple the entire liberal machine from Hollywood to music to the media and big business? Or am I reading too much into it and in fact its just the discontent of those left behind garnished with the racist and intolerant that tip the numbers in that direction?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti
In truth the fact that people felt desperate enough to vote for these outliers suggests something deeper and more worrying, the western system is in acute difficulties and no one currently has a decent solution.
It's always been suggested that democracy is fragile and democracy funded by capitalism perhaps even more so. What is the alternative?
This is also what intrigues me. Who are the major players that manage to topple the entire liberal machine from Hollywood to music to the media and big business? Or am I reading too much into it and in fact its just the discontent of those left behind garnished with the racist and intolerant that tip the numbers in that direction?
It's always been suggested that democracy is fragile and democracy funded by capitalism perhaps even more so. What is the alternative?
The alternative won't be pretty. Let's hope somebody in power is actually listening to the discontent.
I regard Trump as a good lesson in assymetrical warfare, Trump won because Clinton was terrible but also because he threw out the political playbook. I bet on Trump winning and made a good amount on his win. The reason why I felt so strongly that he would win was because of his impressive display during the republican primaries. He made caricatures of the competition, 'weak jeb bush', 'lying ted' and 'little Mark Rubio'. He tested different approaches and stuck with those that worked. He even did it to Clinton with 'Crooked Hillary' and the whole 'Drain the Swamp' slogan.
Well I won on sterling fall from Brexit, so you took the plunge on Trump, braver person than I.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti
The bigger picture I have only started to appreciate is who Trump and Farage work for. I think they are just figure heads for bigger players who used them to serve their own agenda. Farage has disappeared and now Theresa is racing towards a deeply laissez faire model. While America may be heading towards an era of corporate domination that will make the robber barons of old seem like saints. Trump is betting everything on trickle down, targetted protectionism and a FDR infrastructure splurge to help the working class. Between the elites and working man, I know the former will benefit more..
Well its clear that all politicians work for someone and not their constituents. It doesn't matter the color or party or country, someone somewhere is delivering some form of compensation for a politicians vote on their particular subject of interest. Who that someone may be could be another foreign government, a company officer, a lobbiest, a concerned citizen, take your pick. Money and resources talk everything else walks. One person contributing $1m is worth more than a million People contributing $1.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nograviti
In truth the fact that people felt desperate enough to vote for these outliers suggests something deeper and more worrying, the western system is in acute difficulties and no one currently has a decent solution.
Completely agree, and I don't think the solution is even going to come from government. That said no real change happens without a period of chaos, let's hope for some productive chaos.
Originally Posted by nograviti View Post
In truth the fact that people felt desperate enough to vote for these outliers suggests something deeper and more worrying, the western system is in acute difficulties and no one currently has a decent solution.
by Gungnir
Completely agree, and I don't think the solution is even going to come from government. That said no real change happens without a period of chaos, let's hope for some productive chaos.
These are two of the most profound statements I have read regarding what is happening.
There is an illness within the system. I do know that post war President Eisenhower (1953-1961) warned in his farewell speech to beware of the military industrial complex. People didn't know quite what he meant:
It can be defined as, "an informal and changing coalition of groups with vested psychological, moral, and material interests in the continuous development and maintenance of high levels of weaponry, in preservation of colonial markets and in military-strategic conceptions of internal affairs."
The article goes on to cite Franz Leopold Neumann's book," Behometh..." as an explanation of how Nazism came into power in a democratic state.
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