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Decentralized employment is only easier if everyone's driving (especially if there's uncongested highways). With transit lines, especially rail lines, it's much easier to funnel everyone to one point. I don't mean almost everyone, maybe 50% (making up numbers there) of jobs at or near the center. And it's also nice to be able to plan that your job will be in the same place even if you change jobs.
Having very dense housing right next to the city center can make up for some of the time loss. Downtowns are far less sterile than scattered office parks, more jobs in downtown = more shops and mixed use = more vibrant city center and more appealing city in general.
Denver and Baltimore aren't that big compared to cities that have a high amount job centralization (New York, DC, maybe Chicago?) so if planned correctly the time to commute to the city center shouldn't be too bad.
Decentralized employment is only easier if everyone's driving (especially if there's uncongested highways). With transit lines, especially rail lines, it's much easier to funnel everyone to one point. I don't mean almost everyone, maybe 50% (making up numbers there) of jobs at or near the center. And it's also nice to be able to plan that your job will be in the same place even if you change jobs.
Having very dense housing right next to the city center can make up for some of the time loss. Downtowns are far less sterile than scattered office parks, more jobs in downtown = more shops and mixed use = more vibrant city center and more appealing city in general.
Denver and Baltimore aren't that big compared to cities that have a high amount job centralization (New York, DC, maybe Chicago?) so if planned correctly the time to commute to the city center shouldn't be too bad.
I disagree. I don't see why there can't be a number of transit stops. The Tech Center is already served by Light Rail, as is downtown (from some places). The rest of these employment centers are served by bus.
Most people go to work to work, not shop, eat (well, maybe lunch if you don't have an employee caf), recreate, etc.
It's nice to be able to both live and work in Boulder, Broomfield, or Aurora. People do have to live somewhere, and not everyone wants to live in high-density housing in the downtown.
I disagree. I don't see why there can't be a number of transit stops. The Tech Center is already served by Light Rail, as is downtown (from some places). The rest of these employment centers are served by bus.
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Yes, but at what frequency? Centralization all but guarantees frequent service.
Most people in these office-type jobs go to work in the morning and come home in the late afternoon. If you work oddball hours, such as in nursing, you basically need your own transportation, eg drive or ride your bike.
I disagree. I don't see why there can't be a number of transit stops. The Tech Center is already served by Light Rail, as is downtown (from some places). The rest of these employment centers are served by bus.
Most people go to work to work, not shop, eat (well, maybe lunch if you don't have an employee caf), recreate, etc.
It's nice to be able to both live and work in Boulder, Broomfield, or Aurora. People do have to live somewhere, and not everyone wants to live in high-density housing in the downtown.
When looking at an entire MSA, I can agree with what you're saying. In the Youngstown MSA, I can think of a number of historic employment nodes. They were always separate cities. Youngstown and Warren are the largest, and there are small towns in between. But, within those individual communities, employment was still centralized.
What some of us take issue with, I think, is further diffusion of employment centers, where there are business parks dotted alll over a municipality, instead of in the traditional central business district. (Although, if taken to the other extreme of complete employment diffusion, you'd end up with a lot of mixed-use development.)
I guess you could use a third term for places like the Youngstown MSA, which is that of the polycentric city. Maybe an even bigger problem than decentralization though is low density employment. For example, Toronto has a suburban employment area centered around the airport which is almost entirely employment and employs hundreds of thousands of people, but it consists of single storey warehouses, office parks with huge surface parking lots, and the like and the overall size is probably close to 100 square mile.
Most people in these office-type jobs go to work in the morning and come home in the late afternoon. If you work oddball hours, such as in nursing, you basically need your own transportation, eg drive or ride your bike.
Quote:
Originally Posted by memph
I'm travelling in Central Europe now, currently I'm in Budapest. They have buses, trams and subways, as well as commuter trains. It took me only about 30 minutes to get to downtown from a more close in suburb, although that's more because of the short distance (5 miles). I went by bus and then tram in the city, and I'm pretty sure the bus was faster, since it went on relatively fast roads and didn't stop excessively often. The tram didn't stop too much either, bus it was moving slower in the city. Even though it had it's own lane, they only have low blocks separating the tramway from the road so cars and pedestrians could get in even if they weren't supposed to. All vehicles were moving more cautiously in the city though.
What was really nice was that you could take transit without knowing the schedule. The were four periods I could have had to wait, at the start of the trip, and at the transfer point, and again on the way back. We waited something like 2 seconds, then 1 minute, then 2 minutes, then a few seconds again (literally).
That's what I meant about the benefits of centralization (thanks Memph, enjoy your trip)
Last edited by nei; 05-03-2012 at 01:14 PM..
Reason: fixed quote
^^Well, 30 min. to go five miles seems like a lot to me. That distance, even in the city, can usually be driven in about 10-15 min.
Everything's denser and closer together so 5 miles covers a lot more; I assume typical distances are shorter so slow speeds don't matter much.
30 minutes is a bit high, but I wouldn't usually expect to drive 5 miles in 10 minutes, especially in any dense city or with any amount of traffic. That's 30 mph, a very high average non-highway city driving speed. I often can't drive 5 miles in 10 minutes, maybe close to 15, here in the usual direction I go and I'm not in a big city at all.
(Picked a distance from the center of Boston to a random point 5 miles away and got 30 minutes with current traffic from Google; dunno how accurate it is but Google pre-traffic info often had absurdly low driving times.)
Everything's denser and closer together so 5 miles covers a lot more; I assume typical distances are shorter so slow speeds don't matter much.
30 minutes is a bit high, but I wouldn't usually expect to drive 5 miles in 10 minutes, especially in any dense city or with any amount of traffic. That's 30 mph, a very high average non-highway city driving speed. I often can't drive 5 miles in 10 minutes, maybe close to 15, here in the usual direction I go and I'm not in a big city at all.
(Picked a distance from the center of Boston to a random point 5 miles away and got 30 minutes with current traffic)
My office is 5 miles away; it takes about 12 minutes there (sometimes 11) and about 10-11 coming home as I don't have to stop for a long, left-turn light.
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