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I have been looking into moving from NYC to Vermont. I know it may be quite a big change in some ways, but often times change can be very good. I have been focusing on Burlington for several reasons: I am 40 years old and single (divorced about 5 years ago) so need to be where there are still enough things to do and too small or too rural would probably feel much too isolated for me living by myself (and my dog) right now, I do not have any children so am not looking to be in an area where families with children is the focus (although I work with young children as my profession so may work in one of those areas), very dog-friendly living environment (a must - I love being with my dog and taking him to off-leash areas), and desperately want a lifestyle different from the fast-paced and very expensive NYC life. I love what I do for my work but will never get even close to rich doing it, and living in NYC all these many years has made it near impossible to save even a few pennies! I need a much more inexpensive place to live!
I have read tons of threads and responses on this forum about Vermont. There have been an outstanding number of incredibly negative things written about Vermont that have been very discouraging. By far more negatives than positives written. The main things that countless numbers of people living in Vermont, or highly familiar with it, have written are very low salaries, very high cost of living including very high rents as well as high cost to buy apts. or houses and even expensive to buy groceries in some areas (Burlington was mentioned for that, too), high taxes, high crime rate and drugs in Burlington especially, etc. Those are just the major ones, there were more.
I am so confused now!! It is very disappointing to think that you may be able to be happy in a place and then read all these horrible things being written about the whole state, with much too little positive things to counteract (and I actually tried harder to find the "good forums" than the negative ones). Any help in the form of opinions, suggestions, whatever would be more appreciated than you can imagine! Thanks you!
Hi. I also live in NYC (Brooklyn). And I am also researching a move to Vermont. I am looking at Brattleboro, though, rather than Burlington.
I, too, have been intimidated by the talk about the high cost of living and the low salaries. And I have seen the cost of living first-hand.
In Brattleboro, for example, the local health club is more expensive than a small one I can go to here in Brooklyn, although not as expensive as a larger one near my home. The Keene (New Hampshire) YMCA, with a pool, is over 50% more expensive than the Y near my home. The food in the Brattleboro Food co-op is very expensive, but so is the food in the Flatbush Food Co-op here in Brooklyn. Organic food is always more expensive. I haven't seen the prices at a conventional supermarket in Brattleboro, though, so I can't compare on that front.
Almost everyone I have spoken to in Brattleboro, however, has said they love the area.
I, and someone else, have asked about moving to Brattleboro on iBrattleboro.com, a local citizen journalism site. Locals, some of whom are transplanted New Yorkers, responded. Their comments, although basically positive, were tempered by concerns about the economy and the small-town culture. But this was Brattleboro, not Burlington, so the concerns were somewhat different from Burlington's. Brattleboro has small-town issues, unlike Burlington, which has more urban issues. But Burlington is a fairly small city, and Vermont is a small state, so there is some overlap.
The economy is definitely a concern, as are the winters. Jobs are a big concern, as is affordable housing. Taxes are high. From what I have read, it seems that Vermont's policies keep business out and that limits economic growth.
A few years ago, I heard someone say that in Vermont, you do what you have to do to earn a living.
I would say it is advisable to have a marketable profession, which you do, and multiple sources of income. A second source may be a second job, free-lance work, an income-producing hobby or income from rental property. You didn't say what kind of work you do with children, but if you are a teacher, for example, you could teach, tutor or even open a learning/tutoring center, either a franchise or an independent one. If you are a child therapist, you can work at a job, do freelance work, have a private practice and/or even open a center.
Any place has problems. Although Vermont is one of the safest places to live, there really is no place that is totally free of crime, drugs, income disparity, etc. A big problem with a small place like Vermont, is that there are fewer choices of jobs in a field, and if you lose a job, or hate your job and want to leave, there is not anywhere near the number of alternative employers that you would find in NYC.
The important thing is to know what you are looking for, and know what you are willing to give up. Many people have fantasies of Vermont as an idyllic place and then end up disillusioned.
In addition, you can do all the research and analyzing in the world, but the actual experience of living in a place is different from what you imagine, even after visiting. Moving is always a risk, so it is wise to have an idea of what to do if you want to change course and move elsewhere (even back to NYC).
I want to leave NYC to escape the congestion, ugliness, dishonesty, money-grubbing, materialism, ugliness, crime, terrorism threat, hurricane threat and pollution. In view of that steam explosion near Grand Central, there is an added threat from aging infrastructure. Yet NYC is my hometown and I love my city. I love the diversity, the ocean, the opportunities, the world-class arts, the availability of anything, the ethnic foods, the familiar sights and the fact that one can explore the city for a lifetime and never run out of things to see and learn. I will miss them, but they will still be here if I want to visit, or if I even want to return here to live. From Brattleboro, it is a 4-5 hour drive to get to Brooklyn and there is a daily train that goes to Penn Station in midtown Manhattan. From Burlington, as I have been reminded many times, there is a plane that gets to JFK airport in 45 minutes for about $50. So, in Burlington, you would be, in effect, closer to NYC than I would be in Brattleboro, which is geographically closer.
Vermont, like much of New England, is a wonderful place to live. You can really choose, on the continuum of urban to rural, where you want to be. On one thread, I remember reading that only in New England can you find a cosmopolitan, cultured town in a relatively rural area.
Now I am New Yorker, not a Vermonter, so please do not take my comments as definitive. I have been researching, using this forum, using iBrattleboro.com, looking at homes and apartments online, visiting and talking to people. I have studied websites of local agencies in my field and I recently contacted at least one potential employer. But I am not an expert. Not by any means.
But I can tell you this: I lived in White River Junction about 20 years ago, but briefly, and I was not working there. And I was a houseguest, living rent-free. So obviously there were serious limits to what I learned about living there. But I do remember walking around in Norwich one day, I believe during a craft fair, and thinking that I never wanted to leave.
Good luck. Please feel free to contact me privately.
Not to barge in on another state' forum...but have you considered any areas in upstate NY?...The Finger Lakes, Central NY, Nort of Albany up through Glens Falls, etc..
I am looking at a return to NE, and we're considering the northern regions.
I've been to the finger lakes and upstate NY, and lived in a charming small town in NY when very young. Upstate and the finger lakes regions are beautiful.
Despite the beauty, I would not live in NY because of the heavy negatives of the political influence of NYC and such people as Giuliani and Bloomberg, as well as Pataki and whoever the current gov is, on the entire state.
IMO NYC and burbs should become a state, and the more rural areas of NY should be a separate state. NYC could become bloomburgburg, with people needing permission from the king to pee, and upstate could revert to an area where individual freedom is cherished.
I also think California should be split, but into threesies: north, central, and south. The state is ungovernable as it is, and the regions are unique and should be represented as such.
When I look at an area, I look at the philosophy of management and if their priorities are obsessing on controling the proles and laws which look very much like a 1984 steamroller, or if the focus is on individual freedom and against suppressive, big-brother style government.
It's a pity it's come to that in our formerly very-free nation, but the price of liberty is eternal vigilance and some areas are IMO gone because the nanny state crept in while the people slept. And some people like it that way, too.
Many in Russia today long for the return of a Stalin-like boss, too. Go figure.
Have you actually visited Burlington? If you haven't then don't let a bunch of strangers on a message board have more influence on your decision-making process than what you can discover first-hand with a trip to Burlington. As Arel says it is a short hop-flight on JetBlue from JFK and you are in Burlington airport for $100 round trip. The airport has a beautiful new terminal, easy access to rental cars, and is 10 minutes from downtown.
Go visit, set up some appointments to see some rentals in different parts of town, explore Church Street, walk to the waterfront, take your rental car outside the city and you'll see you are out in the beautiful Vermont countryside in minutes. Take a drive towards Charlotte on Spear Street and look at the amazing views across the lake. It really is a wonderful spot and on average you will find that things are LESS expensive than NYC and that people are more relaxed and friendly.
BUT GO SEE FOR YOURSELF. For the inexpensive price and short length of the trip you have no excuse.
Mustard has the right idea here. We are looking to move from the Baltimore MD area in the spring. We plan to move to the Burlington area, somewhere on the outskirts 15-30 min away from downtown. Anyhow you must go visit, try to go a few times during the different seasons of the year. Get the whole picture: look at job ads and call/email and explain that you are looking to move to the area and want to know more about the salary range and insur. is offered for the jobs in your field. Also KNOW YOURSELF what you are looking for and what you are willing to give up. It is not a place for everyone, after visiting I know it is the place for us but also know why it is not the place for many others. Since we are a young (mid 20's) family with two young girls we are looking for different things then what you are but I can tell you that even downtown you are safe, the weather is not as bad as some make it out to be if you stay closer to the lake area, there are jobs (but again look in the paper online and at vtjobs.com for your field and contact them). Also people are very welcoming for the most part we found in the Burlington area and when you go visit set out a plan of a few places you would like to work and talk to people there (if you can). Also since you mention your dog visit as many of the parks as you can, Church St. and also the Farmers Market. You will find many others who love their dogs.
Thank you everyone for your great thoughts and advice! It's all much appreciated! I already have plans to go near the end of August, and am bringing my dog. I have rented a car for the 5 days and will be staying in Rutland b/c that was the best place to have my dog there. I will be going to Burlington to "explore" as much as I can, and thought having my dog with me would be the best way to see just exactly how dog-friendly it all is. I know 5 days is not very long, but it is just a start. I am trying to figure out where else other than Burlington to check out (have been driving myself absolutely crazy researching all these places to decide where else while I'm there!! - any suggestions??). After that, I can always go for a long weekend by JetBlue. I also am going to go again in the "dead of winter." I am intimidated a bit by the scary winters with MOUNDS of snow and FROZEN temps. that last for so many months (okay, and a bit spoiled in NYC - supers and store owners clear your paths, the subways are underground, and no cleaning off a car and dealing with driving in the snow everytime it snows for a car I don't have!). I am worried that it may get too freezing cold for too long there!
Also - I can't move anywhere without a job lined up first (no independent wealth here), so have been searching to get ideas about that, too.
Great idea Vermont08 - to make phone calls to potential employers when I see a job opening telling them I'm thinking about the move and want more info. on salary ranges there, etc. I thought I shouldn't call since obviously not ready to move there yet, but I like your suggestion on how to go about getting the info. that I do want to know right now. Where are you thinking of moving (you wrote outskirts of downtown Burlington, so does that mean outside of Burlington itself and in another town?). Good luck in the spring!
Thank you again!
We are looking at what are called outskirt towns or some of called them bedroom door towns. South Burlington, Essex Junction, Shelburne, Colchester. We are also looking a little further out in smaller towns like Hinesburg. We are looking to rent a small house or the first floor of an large well kept victorian. It needs to have nice yard and owners who will not mind my need to have a small garden and the kids sandbox out back. We also have to make sure it will still be a short drive for my husband to go to work. He has not lined up a job since we can not move till the end of March but has talked with a few people as jobs have been posted and visited a few hotels when we were in town (he is a hotel mgr). For us him getting a job is very important before we move too. We have a limited budget. I stay home full time with the girls ages 19 mo. & 4 yrs so his income supports us all. Though I manage to save us money by growing and canning/freezing food, cooking from scratch, making our soaps and lotions, finding ways to cut our electric bill, etc.
Have you actually visited Burlington? If you haven't then don't let a bunch of strangers on a message board have more influence on your decision-making process than what you can discover first-hand with a trip to Burlington. As Arel says it is a short hop-flight on JetBlue from JFK and you are in Burlington airport for $100 round trip. The airport has a beautiful new terminal, easy access to rental cars, and is 10 minutes from downtown.
Go visit, set up some appointments to see some rentals in different parts of town, explore Church Street, walk to the waterfront, take your rental car outside the city and you'll see you are out in the beautiful Vermont countryside in minutes. Take a drive towards Charlotte on Spear Street and look at the amazing views across the lake. It really is a wonderful spot and on average you will find that things are LESS expensive than NYC and that people are more relaxed and friendly.
BUT GO SEE FOR YOURSELF. For the inexpensive price and short length of the trip you have no excuse.
Excellent post.
You might try calling people in your business, see if a few are interested in doing coffee and a chat about work. That can get you started networking, there's nothing like personal contacts.
If the local colleges offer a degree in your field you might contact those departments. Do a visit or lunch. Meet people.
Good luck in escaping the city.
I was very disappointed in N New England salaries in my field. The pay was years behind the area I left, and I thought the deep south was economically behind the times. NOT!
One job offer I got from the state of NH was at the top of their pay scale, and as I recall it was about 32-33 grand, that was in 2003. It would be different if housing was cheap, but the boom took care of that.
But where there's a will there's a way, there has to be.
Good luck in your adventure.
We moved to VT 10 years ago to get away from the congestion and "keep up with the joneses" way of thinking in CT. Definitely have not regretted the decision. It has been a great place to raise children and now that ours are about to head off to college, we are considering a move.
Yes, the truth of the matter is that the income to rent ratio here in VT is a bit off BUT this does not mean that it is impossible to live here. We have definitely scaled back our lifestyle over the years and we do make more than most families we know but we are not starving, own a car and were able to buy a house. The taxes are high in comparison to what you get for it but they are not impossible.
I have noticed that this message board in general does seem to have more people that post that seem to have negative things to say rather than positive and this is not just the VT people. It can be very discouraging.
Have you visited? Have you spent a week or two up here getting to know the place?
VT has lots of very positive things to offer. Peace and quiet, lots of beautiful landscape, long winters, short summers, politically active people, farm fresh food, Co-ops and buying clubs, a simple lifestyle, lack of traffic, low crime rate. If these are the things you are looking for, then VT just may be the place for you.
If you are looking to come here and make tons of money, it probably won't happen. You may make just enough to get by with no real luxuries in life. You may need to work in a different field just for the sake of having a job. Or if you are like many successful people here, you can start your own business that will bring you customers from around the US to make it successful. Or you arrive with wealth already and don't need to work to earn a living.
Good luck with your decision and hope my post was a bit more positive.
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Please feel free to contact me privately.
