[68vette]

Originally Posted by pauldorell

To some extent it probably all balances out. If you live here most of your life and don't save much money, that may be just as good as spending most of your life somewhere else that you don't like and accumulating more money. I like Vermont the way it is.

I'm not sure it balances out at all. There are many Vermonters who would like to spend their days in Vermont always, but they get to retirement age and they are price out of their own home state. An easy way to look at it is with rent and utilities alone. Not everyone owns a home in state. Average rent in Vermont, not Burlington, is at $1000/month. Add utilities and even food to that and It's easy to see how they can't stay. Retirees who rent don't get a rental discount and affordable senior housing is a far stretch. You may like Vermont how it is, but there are natives of the state who may not share that same view.

[Djuna]

I don't know why anyone would want to retire here. Apart from the fact it's expensive to live here, it is a very harsh environment for the elderly. It's cold, the ground can be slippery and it's a hip fracture just waiting to happen.

[pauldorell]

Originally Posted by 68vette

I'm not sure it balances out at all. There are many Vermonters who would like to spend their days in Vermont always, but they get to retirement age and they are price out of their own home state. An easy way to look at it is with rent and utilities alone. Not everyone owns a home in state. Average rent in Vermont, not Burlington, is at $1000/month. Add utilities and even food to that and It's easy to see how they can't stay. Retirees who rent don't get a rental discount and affordable senior housing is a far stretch. You may like Vermont how it is, but there are natives of the state who may not share that same view.

Although I realize that many in Vermont are having a rough time financially, the state doesn't look that bad on paper. Relative to other states, median household income is above average, unemployment is low, and housing values have held up very well. There are people in every state encountering the problems you describe. And there are wealthy people in every state, including Vermont, who don't have those problems. With all the Audis, Volvos, Mercedeses, Lexuses and Cadillacs I see around here, sometimes it seems like a rich suburb. And they're not all visiting for the weekend.

My point earlier was that if someone can't stay afloat here, they can always go somewhere else to make more money. People don't move to big cities simply because they like big cities. Sometimes you have to go where the jobs are, which may not be in your back yard. My family is comfortable, not wealthy, and we've been on the move for nearly a hundred years.

[looking4home]

My main concern would be the weather. The economy you can do something about, i.e. raise or lower taxes, make more services available for seniors,etc. The long, cold winters (this winter notwithstanding) and high heating bills are not retirement-friendly attributes. Most people I know that are over 65 have some arthritis or other chronic medical conditions that are exacerbated by cold weather. Not to mention, as someone already did, the very real risk of weather-related accidents (slipping on ice, driving conditions, heart attacks because of over-exertion in cold weather, etc.) Let's face it, sunshine and warmth feels pretty good on fine skin, stiff joints, and old bones!

[68vette]

Originally Posted by pauldorell

Although I realize that many in Vermont are having a rough time financially, the state doesn't look that bad on paper. Relative to other states, median household income is above average, unemployment is low, and housing values have held up very well. There are people in every state encountering the problems you describe. And there are wealthy people in every state, including Vermont, who don't have those problems. With all the Audis, Volvos, Mercedeses, Lexuses and Cadillacs I see around here, sometimes it seems like a rich suburb. And they're not all visiting for the weekend.

My point earlier was that if someone can't stay afloat here, they can always go somewhere else to make more money. People don't move to big cities simply because they like big cities. Sometimes you have to go where the jobs are, which may not be in your back yard. My family is comfortable, not wealthy, and we've been on the move for nearly a hundred years.

As with everything you have to look at the data with an open eye or at least understand the fine details. The median. income looks good on paper but there are several things to keep in mind. Vermont has an extremely low population, so It's easier for those numbers to be skewed. VHFA puts out data each year (collected from the state) and it clearly shows about 50% of the population make less than $12/hr. If we gave 50% of the population the benefit of the doubt and figured $12/hr for all of them, that would be less than $25,000. Not near the median income. This is how low population throws data off. The other area to look at is the types of jobs the majority of the population have. The service industry employs most people and not surprising, these jobs are low income jobs. Also how unemployment is tracked now is different than in the past. We no longer track people who have given up finding jobs. I'm sure It's not in the thousands, but you can also see how a low population can be influenced by small changes. VHFA data also shows why home vacancy rates and prices have held. This is largely due to state regulations on build. There is not enough housing or rental stock in the state. The data looks good on paper, but it actually is not good for low income Vermonters in having their dream of home ownership. With a low housing/rental stock, it drives the prices up. This is why home prices are close to what you will find in wealthier states and in the case of rental property, they are equal to what is paid in cities.

[pauldorell]

Originally Posted by 68vette

As with everything you have to look at the data with an open eye or at least understand the fine details. The median. income looks good on paper but there are several things to keep in mind. Vermont has an extremely low population, so It's easier for those numbers to be skewed. VHFA puts out data each year (collected from the state) and it clearly shows about 50% of the population make less than $12/hr. If we gave 50% of the population the benefit of the doubt and figured $12/hr for all of them, that would be less than $25,000. Not near the median income.

Median means as many below as above. It's highly improbable that half the households earn $25,000 or less when the median is $50,000. That would mean that the higher-income half of the households would all be earning $50,000 or more and no households would be earning $25,001-$49,999. Face it, 68vette, there's a lot of dough rolling around here. I guess you're not a radiologist.

[FrugalYankee]

I think someone must have averaged the median income to make that claim.

Take a look at the distribution of median income in VT by county.

ERS/USDA Data - VT Unemployment and Median Household Income

Gee golly gosh, Chittenden county is above average.

It's also worth noting that some of these statistics can be misleading because they may not include single filers.

Doug Hoffer, a Burlington-based policy analyst, said the Woolf and Heaps report doesn't tell the whole story. Hoffer said there's more than a $4,000 income gap in median family income between the Vermont tax data and the Census Bureau data.

He said by using married filing jointly data, it excludes 155,000 single filers, or half the households in Vermont.

http://www.timesargus.com/article/20...WS01/901060331

ETA: Just found this on Burlington and Rutland, claiming that the median income is around $34,000.
http://money.usnews.com/money/retire...ont/burlington
http://money.usnews.com/money/retire...ermont/rutland

And Vermont is one of six states that tax Social Security with no exemptions. Not a way to get on the list of desirable states for retirees that depend on SS.
http://taxes.about.com/od/statetaxes...Retirement.htm

[68vette]

Originally Posted by pauldorell

Median means as many below as above. It's highly improbable that half the households earn $25,000 when the median is $50,000. That would mean that the higher-income half of the households would all be earning $50,000+ and no households would be earning $25,001-$49,999. Face it, 68vette, there's a lot of dough rolling around here. I guess you're not a radiologist.

You are just looking at census numbers. I'm not sure why you can't understand a separation in classes in Vermont. Look up The detailed data from VHFA. That's right, these agencies must be not telling the truth. It's very clear. A large portion of the state residents are making squat for income. What will also throw off median income is if a person has to work two jobs to get by. Then there are those making high incomes. Chittenden, Grand Isle, and part of Addison Counties are where all the money is. In fact take away Chittenden County alone and there would be a significant drop In median income.
I suppose the tens of thousands who are getting hardly anything for heating assistance don't need a dime. If they managed their 50,000 better maybe they could heat their homes. I think if you want to live in our great state, you should also want to look our for those less fortunate that live here. Like it or not the people that move here also change the state. Sometimes for the better sometimes for worse. Ignoring or denying the issue helps no one.
I'm done discussing this subject. Vermont must be perfect just the way it is. If you want to understand the struggles of many read the VHFA reports. Just go to VHFA.org. Also read the reference material associated with the reports. The health if our state is far from what you believe it to be.

[FrugalYankee]

Well here is something that I already knew but at least I found some documentation for it. If Vermont is the worst of the worst as far as retiring goes, it also ain't no picnic if you are working.

Fifth place.

With an adjusted-average income of $29,985.60, Vermont is only slightly better than California. The state does have a fairly low unemployment rate, but relatively high state taxes and cost of living drag down its ranking.

MoneyRates.com Ranks the 10 Worst States for Making a Living

[pauldorell]

Originally Posted by FrugalYankee

I think someone must have averaged the median income to make that claim.

Take a look at the distribution of median income in VT by county.

ERS/USDA Data - VT Unemployment and Median Household Income

Gee golly gosh, Chittenden county is above average.

It's also worth noting that some of these statistics can be misleading because they may not include single filers.



State's median income rises to highest on record: Times Argus Online

ETA: Just found this on Burlington and Rutland, claiming that the median income is around $34,000.
Burlington, VT - Best Places to Retire - US News
Rutland, VT - Best Places to Retire - US News

And Vermont is one of six states that tax Social Security with no exemptions. Not a way to get on the list of desirable states for retirees that depend on SS.
State Income Taxes in Retirement - Income Tax Breaks for Retirees

Thanks for the additional info. The median household income in Vermont was $51,618 in 2010 according to the U.S. Census Bureau, which defines "household" as any number of people living under one roof, so I don't think the data we're talking about is way off. Wages are going to be higher around Burlington because there are more specialized jobs and the cost of living is higher. Still, there's less of a wage disparity in Vermont than in most states, because there's no real city here. There aren't any major corporate headquarters, which means there aren't many people making $1 million plus per year. That's the kind of thing that skews data.