Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I would welcome some Mexican neighbors with open arms, frankly.
I don't have a problem with illegal aliens per se: for the most part they take jobs that no one else wants and are of service to legal residents. Their presence, however, raises many questions. What is the point of passports and immigration laws if anyone can ignore them? Does the government have any responsibility to maintain a cultural identity, or should cultural norms be allowed to change randomly as a result of uncontrolled events? What about population growth? Mature Western countries get a economic boost from immigrants who are young and work harder than aging populations, but immigrants often have higher rates of reproduction: is that a good thing in a world whose population is over 7 billion and growing? There may be no right or wrong answers here, but answers are needed even if you are sympathetic with illegal aliens.
For the record, I am a legal immigrant, as is my girlfriend. My daughter married a Tibetan refugee who is now a U.S. citizen. My son married a Colombian national who is a legal resident on a path to citizenship. Many who have followed the rules, including Hispanics, are less than sympathetic with those who came here illegally. Frankly, if I had come here illegally the thought of deportation would be part of my life.
What is the point of passports and immigration laws if anyone can ignore them?
That's a good question. I would ask another: why is it ok to BUY one's way in, through investor green cards, but it's not OK to WORK one's way in? The laws you refer to are not written either by or for normal average people, but to benefit an elite.
Does the government have any responsibility to maintain a cultural identity, or should cultural norms be allowed to change randomly as a result of uncontrolled events?
I don't know what you mean about "uncontrolled events", but I would be interested in what you mean by "cultural norms". Are those American Indian norms, or 17th-century Puritanical Anglo-Saxon norms, or what? Are they the norms of the Hispanic populations whose land (conquered from Native Americans just like in northern North America) was recently seized in the Mexican-American war, an event of—really—only a few generations ago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pauldorell
What about population growth?
What about it? It is a graver situation, certainly, in the Third World, as we call it. But two American children consume as much as 30 or 60 or whatever number of Ethiopian children, so we have hardly reason to boast about keeping our own footprint light on the land. Is the reason to keep those whose families are traditionally large out really based on concern for the environment, though, or do we just to make sure they have their six kids there rather than here? I don't see any of the anti-immigration groups lifting a single finger to reduce human consumption overall: rather, they are the ones most likely to be driving Hummers in circles on Earth Day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pauldorell
if I had come here illegally the thought of deportation would be part of my life.
I understand that, but by the same token, look at all the laws where a blind eye is turned: have any bankers gone to jail for their illegal actions? Of course not, to jail Jon Corzine for stealing clients' monies is apparently unthinkable. I maintain that it is ridiculous for a timid populace to adhere to a "but what about the rule of law?" hobbyhorse when the rule of law is flouted minute-by-minute with impunity by those who consider themselves our betters and masters:
-Torture
-War crimes
-Renditions and extra-legal assassinations
-Constant domestic spying, whereby all of our communications are continuously hoovered up by the government in open violation of the Fourth Amendment
-MERS, the banks' means of having destroyed the chain of title for the majority of homes in the U.S. and defrauded town registries out of millions, if not billions of dollars
The list goes on and on.
-----
I had a discussion with an Italian friend of mine, in Italy, after we watched a large Indian family enter the Chinese restaurant where we happened to be eating. He was deeply troubled by the fact that Europe might be "overrun" with foreigners, and that at some point in the future (long after he was dead; in fact, he's dead already, poor soul) "they" might be a majority. I had a hard time understanding his fears. As an American, I was used to the idea of waves of different people moving about. He took pride, instead, in centuries of familial nobility (which made me gag). So what if—after he was dead—an Indian family bought his house? Let them have their time, as he had his time… I could not understand the mean-spiritedness and exclusivity, and the desire to control things from beyond the grave.
"Italy", anyway, as a nation-state, is far younger than the U.S., having been constituted in 1861-1870 or thereabouts, depending on who you talk to. In the North of Italy, German is the primary language of some provinces, and Italian-language books and periodicals are relegated to the "foreign-language" section of bookstores. A Milanese will still find it impossible to understand a Sicilian's speech, and vice-versa.
An interesting comment I came across (I can't remember the name of the writer) described his family's static trajectory during the mid-20th-century (paraphrasing, and I will get the countries and the order wrong here): his parents were born in [Poland], he was born in [Germany], his children were born in [Lithuania], although none of them moved from the same town (I think it was Vilnius) the whole time. This is just to show you how the arbitrariness of boundaries can affect real people. Just to make things more interesting, Vilnius was apparently once at least partly under Russian dominion, back in the 18th c..
I think people find comfort in a static view of things, which they feel is defensible, when life and history offer anything but.
I don't know what you mean about "uncontrolled events", but I would be interested in what you mean by "cultural norms". Are those American Indian norms, or 17th-century Puritanical Anglo-Saxon norms, or what? Are they the norms of the Hispanic populations whose land (conquered from Native Americans just like in northern North America) was recently seized in the Mexican-American war, an event of—really—only a few generations ago.
Regarding population growth, American population growth is the worst kind, because it results in the most waste of natural resources, with negative environmental consequences. Without changing the American lifestyle, as harsh as it sounds, it would be better for the world if prospective immigrants stayed where they were and died rather than moving here and becoming Americans.
Regarding the rule of law, I agree that the concept is abused by those in power. Laissez-faire capitalism requires laws to defend the rights of property owners. I would love to see the collapse of capitalism, but then anarchy wouldn't be an improvement.
I don't think cultural identity is all that important. My great-grandparents were Armenians living in Turkey, English middle class and a French woman who grew up in Paris. My mother grew up in Greece. The only cultural identity I recognize for myself is that of the Enlightenment, which anyone can easily adopt simply by becoming educated.
Those of you who are enjoying the high level history and cultural discussion will hopefully enjoy the higher violent crime that is about to overtake the state. In case you haven't noticed, Vermont has already been targeted by gangs who have brought in armed robberies, violent attacks on people in their own homes, street shootings, and a level of drug dealing that goes far beyond the small time pot dealers we've had for years. Now it seems some of you are fine with the human trafficking.
Do you like crime? I mean really like crime? Is this the Vermont you were hoping to find? Don't kid yourself that it will stay confined to the less desirable parts of the state.
I'd rather see the farms shut down than prop them up with subsidies and cheap labor.
Oh and as to why it is ok to buy one's way in but not work one's way in? Because life isn't fair. Anyone over age 30 should be able to grasp that. If you are rich, no matter how you got to be that way, you can buy nice food, clothing, housing, education and vacations. If you are not rich, you must either be content with things that aren't as nice, or you can start breaking laws (ie steal) in order to have some of those nice things.
If I saw a veiled comment that our immigration laws are in need of reform, d 'accord. Ever since we went the route of family reunification as opposed to qualifications, it has hurt us tremendously. Switzerland doesn't give away residency or citizenship lightly, neither should we.
Do you like crime? I mean really like crime? Is this the Vermont you were hoping to find? Don't kid yourself that it will stay confined to the less desirable parts of the state.
On a recent roadside cleanup by our house I picked up a couple of used syringes: not a good sign. However, crime is still pretty low in Vermont compared to other states.
Yes it is low compared to other states. Keep repeating that. Funny thing about statistics, a low rate looks great until you, your loved ones or neighbors are affected.
You also might want to take a look at the trend. Drug-related crime is on the rise in Vermont and gangs are moving in. A lot of communities are still in denial or think their commnity is immune. Do an internet search on "vermont drug bust." Heroin use is on the rise and is being described as epidemic.
Complacency is the surest way to make sure the entire state will suffer. I don't think we as a state need to be sending the message that criminals are welcome.
Complacency is the surest way to make sure the entire state will suffer. I don't think we as a state need to be sending the message that criminals are welcome.
The thing is small-scale drug distribution is a lot easier to clean up than large-scale. I doubt any international drug cartels have bases here the way they do in big cities. There have been a lot of drug arrests recently in Addison County. When you live in a small town and heroin starts showing up, it takes about ten minutes to figure out where it came from.
I don't think cultural identity is all that important.
Which is it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pauldorell
American population growth is the worst kind… it would be better for the world if prospective immigrants stayed where they were and died rather than moving here and becoming Americans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pauldorell
For the record, I am a legal immigrant, as is my girlfriend. My daughter married a Tibetan refugee … My son married a Colombian national…
Ok, so all four of you are among the "worst kind" of people, illegal or not.
Why did you come to the U.S. in the first place if you felt that way??
Paul, I generally like your comments and agree with much of what you say, but I think you are off base here with the appeal to some mythical "Ethan Allen" scenario. Your own history and family experiences belie what you write, wouldn't you say? Ethan Allen, from what little I know, was not some sort of pure character; he was a land speculator battling competing land speculators, not unlike other national "heros".
People move in order to gain advantages, in order to better their lot with respect to others, in order to command more energy resources. Few people say "nah, I'd rather live in low-energy consumption Calcutta than in high-energy consumption New York; low-energy consumption Romania rather than high-energy consumption Italy."
Did you move to Vermont in order to gain advantages, or to renounce advantages you had elsewhere? What were the motivations for your wife and for your childrens' spouses? To better their lives or to cut back consumption by living in a more sustainable, hand-to-mouth, fashion?
I don't wish to make you any sort of immigration poster child or blame you in particular, but let's please just not be hypocritical. Let's look at things clearly. People move for selfish reasons, and it is obnoxious to sort folks into those "more" or "less" DESERVING of mobility.
If for some reason circumstances were to change and those conditions became different, yes, Vermonters would have a majority of French or Spanish speakers. WHAT OF IT?
There's a whole lost Francophone culture in VT already, if you are not aware of it.
German was a competitor for English as the U.S. national language.
Chicago had tons of public schools which taught in the German language, back in the 1800s-early 1900s, if I am not mistaken.
Given the background you have described, Paul, I'm surprised that you are wedded to a fixed idea of the local VT culture, although, funnily, some south Asians were among the strongest supporters of the British empire.
---
Frugal Yankee, Mexicans moving in next door to me may deal drugs, or they may not. All I know is that the white youth have different cars in the driveway every day, and sport some real pimpin' sorts of rides. Is the devil you know better or worse than the devil you don't know? It's sad about drug use in VT, but I think that is par for the course for a society which infantilizes youth and warehouses them in schools which train them for pretty much nothing they are going to find in the real world. As jobs diminish in absolute number, Youth are encouraged to chase more credentials and go into more debt. There are complicated reasons for this, involving the nature of money and debt, which are too long and complex to go into here, but suffice it to say that a culture which valued its young people would not sit by watching the drugs and the teen pregnancies and the tattoos and the dead-end self-absorption with gadgets and motor sports as though it were happening to someone else's kids on some other planet. We've decided that we don't have constructive things for young people to do (or older people, or middle-aged people, as a matter of fact…) and so we will reap the consequences of that social arrangement to which we've signed on: the one where we are all "consumers" and not citizens or producers.
Last edited by ladelfina; 05-17-2013 at 09:11 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
