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Some people need to re-define their notion of "great."
If I had a chance to live on $9.18 per hour in a town with excellent community programs for kids, easy access to all sorts of hiking, snowshoeing, skiing, snowmobiling trails, a superb public library and to get acquainted with a group (admittedly very small) of intelligent, perceptive and engaged citizens who are interested in shaping the town's new direction, I'd settle in a town like Springfield. If I wanted to live in a town where all the decisions were made for me, where I wanted to be a spectator rather than an actor, where my chief occupation would be to grumble about what was being inflicted on or denied to me, I'd look elsewhere.
You clearly havent been to many places if you think Springfield is "great". An aging, declining population (like most of Vt) no infrastructure, the main industry they had dried up decades ago, no vibrant downtown, and tons of welfare and drugs. Sign me up! Lets all move
I live in Windsor, a town that has spent the last 30 years trying to recover from the loss of industry. But even from that view, I would never recommend Springfield. And again, I'm not trying to be catty as plenty of people turn up their nose at Windsor as well.
At least in Windsor it's an easy 20 minutes to Hanover/Leb/West Leb. It's what's helped us become a solid little bedroom community. Springfield isn't near anything, in either direction.
When I bought my house here in Windsor 14 years ago the town was a dump. When my kid started school 6 years ago I sent him to private school. But I was young and it was dirt cheap while the rest of the Upper Valley was getting way too expensive.
All these years later though, the change is huge. The downtown has been completely rebuilt, there are so many community projects going on. Revitalization, new businesses, etc, And best yet, the schools are greatly improved, so much so that I've moved my son to the public school here. It's a great town for small families.
It could just have easily gone the other way. I feel like we got very lucky.
Perhaps Springfield will have a similar revitalization, and perhaps you want to be a part of that. Just make sure you know what you are getting into. Talk to lots of people who live there and get the real scoop, whatever that may be.
I don't think you can pin it on one thing really. There were a lot of half-starts and failures along the way, and it's happened in stages.
Shortly after we moved here 14 years ago, there was a lot of young couples like us that bought into town, and fixed up a lot of the nice old homes, because it was so cheap. The park & ride at Exit 9 went from empty every day to so full they kept expanding it. Windsor was close enough to WRJ & Hanover that it was an affordable bedroom community.
Mascoma Bank bought a whole section of downtown street scape and completely rebuilt it. That made a big difference. Then things sort of leveled out for a while.
The next big change happened when the former "Block" Armory Square apartments, which accounted for 80% of the police blotter, was emptied, gutted, and rebuilt by a reputable agency. It had changed hands multiple times in the past but just got worse and worse. They made more and more tiny apartments in there, stuffed it as full as possible, and with predictable results. Lots of drugs, crime, domestic abuse, culminating in one drugged out tenant nearly burning the whole thing down.
Finally, a multi-agency coalition who actually wanted to FIX it instead of just capitalize on federal grants bought it. They completely renovated it, and now it is a very well regulated, multi-income level building with very strict rules and regulations.
During the 2+ years that the Block was empty, a lot of the more troublesome, transient folks left town for good. That sounds awful, but it's the truth. A lot of troublemakers left. This not only reduced crime, it also lowered the number of kids in the school who were dealing with troubled home situation.
Being poor isn't a crime, and lots of poor families are very engaged and active in their kids' schooling. There are plenty of folks like this in Windsor. They do their best with what they have. I grew up poor, I know how that goes. But when you add crime and drugs to poor it becomes a negative 3 that is hard for a community to overcome.
The reality of a "good" school system has a lot to do with a town's poverty rate. A high poverty rate = fewer involved, engaged parents. Hanover NH, for instance, loves to rave about how great their schools are. But as my friend the educational consultant says, "Of course it's great! They have zero poverty and a highly educated parent based." Towns like Windsor, Springfield, BF, all grapple with higher poverty rates. And that is felt at the school level, so there are challenges.
The next big upswing was/is a really fantastic change in School Administration and especially the new Windsor Schools Principal, Bridget Fariel. In the 3 years she and Superintendent Brown have been here there has been a remarkable change in how the school performs but more importantly, the school culture. Farm to school program, closing the technology gap, reintroducing the theater and music programs, a higher standard of language/respect/values, and a far greater push for parental involvement.
And finally, our Town Manager, Tom Marsh, is a whiz at grants and community rebuilding. He's gung ho to help every group who wants to do something positive be heard and be helped. He's led a multi-year campaign to rebuild roads and sidewalks, is a big supporter of festivals and other events, etc.
We don't get down to BF much but recently had dinner at Popolo, very nice. It's such a great downtown and it looks like you guys are trying to improve in a similar way to how White River Junction has. With the arts. I think that's a great way to go, it has so much potential.
Yes, sadly I agree with OhBeeHave and mrsross1987 re: Springfield. Maybe it would be best to say, "It was once a great town, and has the potential of being one again."
Definitely Chittenden County (Burlington) would be the best place in VT to look for IT work. It's hard to find work in rural areas, even in big towns like Burlington but people do manage. But be prepared for a much higher cost of living than NC and paying for heating fuel and more gas for commuting more.
Hi, Because I will eventually be doing the exact opposite of you and moving from New England to NC I'll give you some advice since I researched long and hard a long time ago. It depends though on whether you are seeking employment or your employment will carry with you.
The only place an individual will be able to make 107,000 annually without being a part of a buddy network is the Boston area. You will also need to increase your salary by 20,000 to maintain the standard of living that you currently have. It is possible to get an IT job for 127,000 in Boston. Quite possible to get much more. But the standard of living in eastern Mass is the highest in New England except maybe in CT suburbs near New York.
You will likely not get an IT job easily for 107,000 anywhere else except possibly CT. But it sounds like your interested in northern New England and not southern New England. Boston, depending on where you are around, has different charms, but not a Northern New England one.
Do not move to Maine unless you can retire and your income is stable. It has it's charms but only if you are prepared to settle down and never leave. Good news is you can take 20,000 pay cut and still have the same standard of living. Unfortunately it means a lot of people will not look at you seriously if you ask for 107,000. I don't know if you did, but if you told the people in Maine you wanted 107,000 that probably played a big role in you loosing out to a local guy, with probably the same experience, who was willing to take 40,000.
IT jobs in Northern New England are not the same as more urban areas. Your husband probably does a specific thing and does it well, in Northern New England, they don't want an SQL admin. They want an SQL Admin, an IIS admin, some linux experience, you need to be able to program in Cobol and Java, also your the CIO, the help desk, and the Network Admin, you wont have any subordinates, and you need a CISSP, a CCNP, and an MCSA up to date, and your starting salary will be hourly, and under $20 an hour (forget about asking for an annual salary, and the word bonus is nonexistent in the local vocabulary). You can find the high paying ones, but they are fought over by people who know people, and have lived here longer then you. Those jobs are hard to get, the other dismal jobs are easy because the companies don't understand Information Technology, don't care, and don't value IT workers. Also be very careful of titles up here, someone who may be a "Director of Information Technology" in a metropolitan area in North Carolina, with three subordinate managers, a team of bilingual techs, and remote locations, has a counterpart in northern New England named the same thing, who shares his desk with the receptionist and is, among other things, tasked with making sure the coffee is boiling if the receptionist forgets.
Vermont has a about a 10,000 higher standard of living then NC, but only in the Burlington area. Unfortunately your going to be asking for 117,000 in Burlington, and your going to find the same problem as you would in Maine, however Burlington is a better place to live then most, especially Maine, so if you can reduce your standard of living Burlington would be a good place to be. It's not the best, and I'll tell you where that is in a sec, but its alright. Unfortunately Burlington is an island in a sea of nothing. It is surrounded by backwoods rural areas where you will never see a salary of 107,000, since it is more then most of the owners of the companies you will be working for make. You will be lucky if you leave your job working at Mcdonalds in the morning to go to your job working at Burger King in the evening, and let me tell you those jobs, seriously, are the ones people are fighting over. If you ask for 107,000 for any job outside of the Burlington area you will be laughed at. I say this not because you will never find a job for 107,000 outside of Burlington, but you will always find someone who is willing to take much less, and then you are out of job. In those rural areas, if someone is asking you for 225,000 for a house, you are being robbed. In the center of Burlington you might want to ask why its so cheap. Your sweet spot overall are the bedroom communities like Williston, Essex, Richmond, Waterbury, Hinesburg, and the like, these are essentially suburbs of Burlington, but rural enough so you can probably get the price you want. Waterbury is also half way between Burlington and Montpelier/Barre, the state Capitol area. The Southern VT area? Well people there look up to Springfield MA as a move up. You probably don't know anything about Springfield MA. Don't worry most people don't.
That being said, probably steer clear of VT. You may regret it moving from where you are. I'm going to tell you where you want to go, if you want northern New England, and if you take my advice, and then 10 years from now drive through the back roads of VT (don't take 89) to Burlington, you will understand what I mean and utter a silent prayer for my safety and happiness. (but caveat, free advice is worth what you pay for it) 20 years ago most of Vermont looked like it does today, I know I was there, and 10 years ago it looked the same as it will 10 years from now. The cows are gone for the most part, sadly, but otherwise, its green trees and low economies and has always been from early 1900's on (I know because I knew people who were around then). Take this, had a friend who moved from Seattle to Vermont, loved it their first year, couldn't imagine a better, fresher, healthier place, asked how I could ever want to leave it. Four years later now wanting to leave, not because she couldn't get along with people, not because of the politics, taxes, cost of living or anything like that. Vermont never changes. It is cold, it is sunless, and brown during the winter, it is cold, it is sunless, and it is green during the summer. Next year, it will be cold, sunless and brown/green, just like last year, and the year before that. You may say, well climate is climate, but in Vermont Climate is Climate without everything you take for granted in NC, there is no Metropolitan Charlotte in Vermont to visit, no Wilmington to visit, no Raleigh to visit, no Greensboro to visit, no misty great smokey mountains to visit, no sunny Cape Hatteras to visit. The bad stuff you have in North Carolina, like hurricanes, tornadoes, you don't even have them. You have nothing but cold, sunless green and brown. For some that's heaven, they're called Vermonters, and I am not putting them down. If you like it, all power to you.
For the feel you are looking for, and a less significant hit in the cost of living without the isolation of Burlington, the drudgery of backwoods Vermont, and the dismal outlook for Maine, move to Southern NH. You can ask for 80-90 thousand and while it's still high, it's populated enough to give you a chance to rely on experience and a resume, without the buddy network. The sweet spot is Concord. If you want a more urban lifestyle you move closer to Manchester and Nashua. If you want a more rural lifestyle, you move toward Lebanon or Plymouth. For a more vacation like area, move to the lakes region, if you really like the ocean move to Portsmouth or Dover. Pretty much everywhere in NC is within a few hours of a major metropolitan area, living in southern new Hampshire puts you within 3 hours of Boston (less if you don't hit traffic). Boston, as I said above, is a city that has a wonderful character for visitors, and offers the amenities that cosmopolitan international city can. Living in southern New Hampshire will put you within 3 hours of Burlington VT, most of Maine, the white mountains, all of eastern MA, and the Atlantic Ocean. Day trips allow you to experience RI and CT, and your close enough to interstates that allow you to visit Canada, including Montreal and Quebec City for a weekend. New York City, while a haul will be doable for a four day weekend. The only caveat for New Hampshire, do not go above the white mountains, you will be stuck there forever financially if things go south, getting other places is a pain, and you would have to be prepared to shop primarily at Walmart or the dollar store.
Another thing in Southern New Hampshire and Eastern Massachusetts favor is that they are historic, and I don't mean like Vermont's "historic ramshackle farmhouse that some semi important person who did something everyone forgot about lived in" historic, I mean birth of the nation historic, I mean bunker hill historic, clipper ships historic, treaty pf Portsmouth historic. In northern New England they struggle to find a place that is of any significant historical value, such that they slap the label historic on an unearthed pile of coke bottles from the 50's. New Hampshire is the "live free or die state", and Massachusetts is the home of the "New England Patriots", landing place of the pilgrims, and the Boston Tea Party. History there is life, they breath it, its in their bones, they pass it everyday on their way to work, and live next to cemeteries where are buried founding fathers. Compare that to Vermont's "Green mountain state" attitude. Yep those mountains are green. Have always been, will always be. You like green, you got it.
To put it a different way, an estimated roughly 10 million people have chosen to make NC their home. Only an estimated 630,000 people have chosen to make Vermont their home. Well, you say, Vermont is smaller then North Carolina. Correct, however, New Hampshire, which is actually 300 square miles smaller then Vermont has an estimated 1,300,000 people. Twice as many people choose to live in New Hampshire then Vermont. People vote with their feet, unless their feet are tied.
As said in the beginning its the job that matters though, your best chance to find a good paying job and survive if it goes south on you, in New England, is Southern NH or Boston and it's suburbs.
If I could pick a place to live right now, and I had to stay in Northern New England, and I didn't have to worry about a job, it would be Concord or Lebanon (stay out of White river Junction on the VT side of the CT river across from West Lebanon, the upper valley isn't bad, but its out of the way.) As I said Concord would be your sweet spot. Lebanon is rural but Dartmouth Hitchcock and the college basically make it awesome. Concord, small state capital just north of bustling urban areas and close to some of the best hiking and nature in New England in the white mountains. Given no other choice outside the area and free to choose, its where I'd be.
However, for me, I hate the cold, the environmental wear and tear of winter, the lack of sunshine, and my wife is from 6 degrees below the equator, so long ago I gave up on northern New England, and your muggy hot NC clime is actually not that hot or muggy to me.
Oh and you mentioned upstate New York, I know your serious, and appreciate that, but I couldn't help but chuckle. Your best bet is Plattsburg. But don't. If your hearts set, move to Burlington VT. You will be commuting on the ferry across lake Champlain to work in Burlington anyways.
Without the Green Mountain Boys capturing Ticonderoga and its artillery, and sending that to Washington in Boston, without the Battle of Hubbardton buying time for the later victory at Saratoga, things might have turned out different in the Revolution. VT also produced the modern conservation movement with George Perkins Marsh, the first normal school in the country to reform education of teachers in Concord by Rev. Hall in 1823, besides a few other notable historical things (Joseph Smith of the LDS being born here, among others). To say southern New England has a monopoly on significant history isn't quite true.
I would find dealing with the sprawl and traffic of urban areas to be a drudgery. It's healthier to have views of nature rather than views of crowds and pavement.
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It's such a great downtown and it looks like you guys are trying to improve in a similar way to how White River Junction has. With the arts. I think that's a great way to go, it has so much potential.
