[BickleTravis]

Originally Posted by Sherylcatmom

Of course we shouldn't lie and make up silly stories. I don't know anyone who raves about Vermont in the sci fi terms you gave. And if you've read posts other than your own, including mine, you'd see that I've said Vermont's jobs are very limited and cost of living is high. I've also described problems in Rutland, where I live, including even more limited opportunities and drug/crime problems. I've never said otherwise.

I'm asking people to speak from their own experiences, not generalize about what "everyone" or "most people" do here -- something no one could possibly know. I saw posts this morning saying there are "literally" no jobs here (wrong) and that "most" people here live on trust funds (I know almost no one like that and I work all over the state) and that if people's children attend Burlington schools they'll turn into Oxycontin addicts (bizarre).



Please show us evidence to support that a big part of Vermont's economy is driven by people who move here from elsewhere, spend out-of-state money, and leave broke and battered. I'm not talking about one or a handful of personal anecdotes. I am interested in people's personal stories -- but you offered this as a generalization. So please provide anything that shows your stereotype is happening to a significant degree, more than it happens anywhere else people want to move and then it doesn't work out.

Of course there's more economic pain ahead -- for everyone, not just Vermonters. I dispute that you can predict the future.

Your post is full of generalizations that you've offered no data to support. I think your generalizations/stereotypes/fictions detract from the credibility of your posts, which often contain good information. Since you and a few others others can't seem to discern between speaking from your own experience and offering opinions/predictions as if they're fact, I'll accept the low level of discourse here. A pity.

I don't know about leaving broke and battered, but if you've ever been to Burlington, its plain to see that the entire economy is based on out of state money.
Also, if you don't think there's a severe Oxycontin problem in Burlington schools, you've never been here, period.

[Sherylcatmom]

Originally Posted by mustmove

How many VTers do you know who have purchased their house with money earned in VT?

This is not statistically significant, just anecdotal personal experience: Everyone on my block purchased their homes with money earned in Vermont. Some have been here all their lives. Some, like my husband and me, moved to Vermont and rented here until we'd earned enough to buy a home.

I'm thinking through my Vermont friends right now and can't think of any for whom that isn't true, besides those who are renting.

[BickleTravis]

Originally Posted by Sherylcatmom

This is not statistically significant, just anecdotal personal experience: Everyone on my block purchased their homes with money earned in Vermont. Some have been here all their lives. Some, like my husband and me, moved to Vermont and rented here until we'd earned enough to buy a home.

I'm thinking through my Vermont friends right now and can't think of any for whom that isn't true, besides those who are renting.

I wonder what percentage of Burlington rent is paid with money earned in VT?

[Sherylcatmom]

Originally Posted by BickleTravis

I don't know about leaving broke and battered, but if you've ever been to Burlington, its plain to see that the entire economy is based on out of state money.

A grandiose statement with no facts behind it. I don't see it. Repeating it over and over won't convince me that "the entire economy is based on out of state money." I just want to see some validation of these claims.

Originally Posted by BickleTravis

Also, if you don't think there's a severe Oxycontin problem in Burlington schools, you've never been here, period.

Do you really not see the difference between saying there's a severe Oxycontin problem in the schools and saying that if people's children attend the schools they'll become Oxycontin addicts?

[BickleTravis]

Originally Posted by Sherylcatmom

A grandiose statement with no facts behind it. I don't see it. Repeating it over and over won't convince me that "the entire economy is based on out of state money." I just want to see some validation of these claims.



Do you really not see the difference between saying there's a severe Oxycontin problem in the schools and saying that if people's children attend the schools they'll become Oxycontin addicts?

Obviously... I sort of thought that would be seen as a joke...
Where are the facts to back up your claim (other than anecdotal "everyone on my block" evidence) to back up your claim that a significant part of VT's economy is not based on out of state money?
Pop quiz: What's VT's biggest industry?

[Sherylcatmom]

Originally Posted by BickleTravis

Obviously... I sort of thought that would be seen as a joke...

Having loved ones suffer with addiction "sort of" sucks all the humor out of that "joke."

Originally Posted by BickleTravis

Where are the facts to back up your claim (other than anecdotal "everyone on my block" evidence) to back up your claim that a significant part of VT's economy is not based on out of state money?

I never made a claim. I only asked that people making claims please offer some facts. My response was in direct answer to a request to provide anecdotal information. mustmove asked: "How many VTers do you know who have purchased their house with money earned in VT?"

Originally Posted by BickleTravis

Pop quiz: What's VT's biggest industry?

I'm guessing tourism but I wouldn't make the claim without first getting some facts about it. Can you provide some?

[CaseyB]

Could we please get back on the thread topic? Thanks.

[Bang!]

Well, this thread is too long to tell exactly what topic is, but I'll venture to guess that its OK to talk about housing costs. Echoing what others have said, the real estate market in *some* parts of the state have been distorted by outside $. For example, my part of Vermont is in ski country which probably explains why 55% of the homes in my town (Mount Holly) are owned by non-residents. While I have solid evidence to back my claim, I've heard anecdotal evidence that the non-resident ownership rate in neighboring Ludlow is 85%.

As for the people who do live in town, I can't say where their money comes from but we, the town, do maintain records of the state of residence of people buying property. And, we maintain records for which houses are residences vs second homes. And, we maintain records for how long the same property has been occupied as a residence. We know that more than half the homes are vacation homes. We know that Connecticut residents are the largest property owner in town. And, we know that a only very small number of people have resided in town for more than ten years. Together this tells us that much of the real estate market in town is driven by the second home vacation property buyers followed by people who only recently moved to town from other places.

The big question is, do these out-of-state buyers distort prices such that local wages are not sufficient to buy in? I think, at least in tourist markets like my town, the answer is clearly yes. However, this is no different than any other tourist destination. Besides, more affordable property is available in nearby towns like Rutland.

My observation is that most of the hostility and resentment is because many long-time residents have been effectively priced out of the market by the run-up in property values coupled with the large increases in property tax we've seen over the last ten years. Vermont property is nowhere near as affordable as it was a decade ago. But, you don't have to believe me. You can hear the same thing directly from the State in its 2009 report title "Between a Rock and Hard Place: Housing and Wages in Vermont" which starts off with this as the first paragraph:

"For the past seven years, this report has tracked the gap between housing costs and wages in Vermont and has illustrated a situation in which thousands of Vermonters and their families have been having an increasingly difficult time finding housing they can afford."

http://www.vhcb.org/pdfs/housingwages09.pdf (broken link)

Best Regards
Bang!

[ex-springfielder]

You could also buy a house in Springfield which is even closer to Ludlow than Rutland. Recently I was browsing Springfield properties for sale and noticed one with an asking price of $68,000, a fixer-upper with potential, the property taxes were $3600 per year. I don't think there's a lot of out-of-state money driving the market in Springfield, or BF or Rutland.

[BickleTravis]

This is why VT is such a rat hole:
The median purchase price of a primary home in Vermont in 2008
remained at $200,000, unchanged from the previous year and a 100
percent increase since 1996, the baseline year for these reports.
A Vermont household would need an annual income of $63,000 as well
as $14,000 in cash (for closing costs and a 5 percent down payment) to
purchase that home. Sixty-one percent of Vermont’s households have
incomes below $63,000.
The median income for all Vermont’s households is $51,566.7 A household
with that income could afford a home priced at about $163,000, assuming
it has about $11,000 in cash for closing costs and down payment.
The average Fair Market Rent for a modest, two-bedroom apartment
in Vermont reached $914 in 2008(about $1200 in Burlington), a 9 percent increase since the year
before and a 63 percent increase since 1996.
A Vermont household would have to earn $17.57 per hour, (I know no one who makes more than $16 an hour)or $36,550
annually, to afford that Fair Market Rent. At least 52 percent of Vermont’s
non-farm employees — more than 151,216 people — have wages
below that level.
That is pure insanity. To say VT is a "great place", and attempt to silence anyone who says otherwise is to ignore that it is a very painful place for a lot of the people living here.